Turning Points Ep 6: Holding Each Other Through Life: A Friendship Story

It all started with a trip. Three friends showed up, and what began that day became the blueprint for a life-giving friendship five years later.

In this episode, Angella sits down with two of her closest friends, Dorcus Nakachwa and Margaret Odero, to reflect on the friendship they’ve nurtured over the past five years. The spontaneous trip unexpectedly bonded the three women to be each other’s anchors through heartbreaks, career struggles, and life transitions. The group talks about the intentionality, accountability, and safe space that keep their friendship alive across countries and time zones.

The group shares stories of supporting one another, learning together (including how money and investing became a group conversation), and how the qualities of your friends ultimately shape the kind of person you become. This is a raw, honest, and joy-filled conversation about the beauty of women’s friendships, the work it takes to sustain them, and why they can become a blueprint for love, trust, and growth in every area of life.

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Transcript

Angella Nantambi (00:00:00):

Hello and welcome to Turning Points: Stories of Change and Growth, a podcast by Mastercard Foundation's Baobab platform for young African leaders. I'm your host, Angella Nantabi, and Alumni of the Mastercard Foundation Scholars Program from Ashesi University in Ghana. In each episode, we'll dive into real unfiltered conversations with young African leaders who have navigated defining moments like finding their first job, building community, caring for their mental health, juggling work, and those lighter laugh out loud moments we don't always talk about. Whether you're in the middle of a big transition or just love a good story, you'll find something here. So grab a cup of tea, take a walk, or settle in. Let's explore the turning points together.

(00:00:54):

Welcome back to Turning Points podcast, stories of change and growth. I'm your host, Angella Nantambi, and if you're new here, this is the space where we talk about those defining moments, the shifts, the lessons, and the people that really change us along the way. In today's episode, this one is really close to my heart. We're talking about friendship. The kind that shapes you, challenges you, carries you through the tough seasons and makes life a lot more joyful. And I'm not doing this conversation alone, which is why. It's close to my heart. I'm joined by two of my close friends who we have navigated this thing called Life Together. We've been through so much together, so many ups and downs, and together we are pulling back the curtain on what it really takes to build and sustain friendships that change you. So, I can't wait for you guys to listen in and welcome to my good friends, Dorcas and Margaret.

(00:01:58):

Say hi to our listeners. Yay.

Margaret Odero (00:02:02):

Hi, listeners. Hello. 

Dorcas Nakachwa(00:02:06):

Hi. Happy to be here.

Angella Nantambi (00:02:08):

Wonderful. Great to have you guys. Fun fact, Dorcas and Margaret are all Alumni of the Mastercard Foundation Scholars Program from Ashesi. We go way back in our college days, but I'm not going to speak too much. I'll let everyone introduce themselves and we can talk through how we met, because that's always a very fun story. We all tell it very differently, and I can't wait for you guys to hear it. So let's start from the very beginning. Every friendship has an origin story, like I said. Sometimes it's instant, like when you meet someone and you just know, oops, this person, I like them and I want them to be in my life. Other times it sneaks upon you and before you realize it, ooh, I can't imagine my life without this person. I don't know when and how it happened, but they are now a part of my life.

(00:02:58):

So I'd love for each one of us to share how and when we actually became friends, because we became friends at different points in our lives. What was happening in our life and what was it about this friendship that stuck? So, I'm going to start with Dorcas because it's a longer relationship and when we met. Yeah, let's start there.

Dorcas Nakachwa(00:03:21):

Yeah. So, we were Mastercard Foundation Scholars right from high school. So I would say we've been friends for about 10 years now. But I mean, yeah, we'll talk about when we decided to ... Because we were in high school together from, is it 2013 and 2014 actually?

Angella Nantambi (00:03:50):

2013, 2014.

Dorcas Nakachwa(00:03:51):

So it's over like 10 years now when we met and we were ... Should we say friends or acquaintances?

Angella Nantambi (00:04:02):

Cordio. Cordio.

Dorcas Nakachwa(00:04:03):

Cordio. We were cordio because we were part of the same scholarship group. And after that, we went to Ashesi and we were also Mastercard Foundation Scholars at Ashesi. And even at Ashesi, we wore cordio. We started becoming close towards the end of our Ashesi journey. And I think I remember us ... I don't know what's sparked, maybe Angie, you'll remember more vivid than I do, but I remember us being ... We said we wanted to be friends and we decided to go out for tea and coffee at one of the school cafeterias. And I remember us having friend dates, remember? I still have a picture from that. And yeah, it was cute. And somehow we just grew and we talked through things and yeah, here we are. So I'm talking about my friendship with you, Angie. I'll talk about my friendship with Meg. Yeah, go ahead.

(00:05:05):

Meg and I were both in engineering school, and just so you know, my friends are really super smart. And Meg, Meg was ... I always looked at her like we were still cordial. I remember Meg. So Meg is from Kenya. I'm from Uganda. Angie, as you already know, she's from Uganda. But Meg, I think used to hang out with a lot of Kenyan girls then, but we were all part of engineering school and we were cordial still and we would discuss school assignments together. And we were roommates at some point in time. Meg, I think when we were roommates, I don't think we were close friends. We were roommates, we were cordial, we were nice to each other, but I don't think we were intentional about building a friendship and doing life together. It's after school that we decided to be intentional and decided to do life together.

(00:06:06):

And yeah, I guess we'll come to that point. Okay. So how we came together as a group, I think Angie, I could give my recollection, but anyway, my recollection was we decided to, as we were part of a broader group. So anyway, so at Ashesi, the international students were always ... Asheshi is in Berekuso in the Eastern region, and we're always taken to Accra over the December holidays. And I remember during the December holidays of, was it 2018? A group of us decided ... At that time we were like graduating in June 2019 and we're seniors and we're getting out of here. I remember us deciding to have fun in Accra. And I don't remember if we went to a dance class or we went out to dinner together, but it was a group of like 10 girls of us. And you know, we were called ... Was it Slay Squad?

Dorcas Nakachwa(00:07:02):

Yeah. So yeah, out of that, we created a group. We went out together during that December period and it just grew from there. After graduating, we decided, "Hey, you know what? We need to be more intentional now that we're out of Ashesi." But when we left Ashesi, life happened and somehow, somewhere we actually decided to go on a trip and somehow that was in 2019, end of 2019. Somehow it's only the three of us who nailed down that ... It was 2020. So somehow it was only the three of us who nailed down that, who confirmed for that trip. And we went to Uganda and that time was very pivotal for the three of us when we had that trip all the ... Initially just so I say it was a group, it was a trip that was supposed to be attended by 10 people, but only the three of us confirmed.

(00:08:00):

And we went for that trip. We decided to go ahead with that trip. And on that trip is when we made the commitment to do life together. And it was in 2020. It's 2025 now, and we are still doing life together. We've been through ups and downs, and I am so grateful for each of these girls. They've carried me through arguably one of the hardest times of my life. These are my people. So I'm so grateful for each one of you. Yeah, that is it. It was long-winded, but yeah.

Angella Nantambi (00:08:32):

Yeah. Thank you for taking us through that. So Meg, how do you remember things unfolding? I know Dorcas has shared how the three of us actually connected. We went on a trip, we talked deeply about our lives and where we wanted to go, and we somehow aligned to this point. How do you recollect things for you, Margaret, especially the relationship with you and Dockers and the relationship with you and I?

Margaret Odero (00:08:56):

Yeah. Dorcas just mentioned that you guys had confidence together. I didn't know about that. Okay. But I obviously met both of you in 2015 at Ashesi and you guys already knew each other coming to Ashesi, but I met both of you there. And as Dorcas has mentioned, Dorcas and I were in the same class. We were both in the engineering school. So we shared, especially in the initial stages of school, we shared a lot of classes together. And of course, even more broadly, the three of us were in the international students community. So we would, a lot of time, not just the three of us, but like in the broader community. And I think for the four years, I was closer to Dorcas because Angie was in business school, but I guess it was also, again, not super intentional. It was just, we find ourselves in this space and I find that you're a nice person.

(00:10:01):

I have nothing against you. We can hang out. I enjoy your company, but it wasn't as ... I'm going to say it wasn't as strong a friendship. It was more of a cordial relationship. Now, fast forward to, as Dorcas has mentioned, in 2020, towards the end of 2020, we were part of this larger group again, and we had all decided to go on a trip in Jinja, in Uganda. And then, of course, life happens and for one reason or the other, this trip was in Uganda and you both are from Uganda. So I think that made it easier for you guys. And at the time I was in Rwanda, I had just finished my master's program and I didn't have a job yet, but I had some savings and I was like, Rwanda, Uganda is quite close. So it was very convenient for me to just show up as opposed to maybe other people who were in further places.

(00:11:02):

And so it ended up being the three of us and it was one of the best times.

(00:11:09):

As I've said, I think so far I haven't mentioned a lot of relationship with Angie because at the time, we didn't have ... I knew Angie, but that was about it. Now, the thing about that ship is like the conversations, I was like, "Angie, why did we waste a whole four years not being so close?" Because I know I was closer to. And so in that time, we had just such raw conversations and it felt like, "Oh, these are people that I should actually be close to. " Because while we are all not perfect, it felt like people that can create a safe space for me. And also at the time, I remember you both inspiring me so much, and I know we'll probably talk about this later, in terms of just many things, but the one that stood up for me was investments, and I was like, "I am challenged.

(00:12:12):

I am so inspired, and I'm going to try to be on this journey for myself as well." So it was those conversations. And I think after the trip, the trip was about a week, maybe half a weeklong, but then after that, Dorcas had to leave. Now, after that, I spent another almost a month in Uganda with Angie, and that one month ... I mean, I know that the conversations at the trip were great, but I think that one month, I really realized that I wanted to be close to that. I mean, we just jelled because I was staying at her parents' house, and then we were commuting to another place. So it was just living between the two places. So that was the genesis as I remember it.

Angella Nantambi (00:13:00):

Yeah. So it sounds like, and for the people listening, I know a lot of conversations are going on around friendships, especially around female friendships. And growing up, the notion was always, you can't be friends with women. It's like we're fighting against each other, but it sounds like from the recollection that you both just shared, spending time with one another, being intentional with one another really helped cement this relationship that we have right now and taking a trip for the person listening today, you don't have to take a trip anywhere. It could be a trip in your home, having coffee and having a conversation and intentionally opening up with one another. And that's where you now start to see the connection, the alignment in values, the ambitions you have in life, the aspirations. A lot of times it's in those conversations that you find your person.

(00:13:53):

And in this case, it was on a trip that we found each other and decided we are going to be more intentional about this now that we've had this initial conversation and it felt wonderful. How do we move it on to the next step? Now, I know Dorcas has touched a little bit on this one. We've been through the ups, the downs. It's not just about the fun moments. We had a fun time, the very initial time that we all have shared in Jinja when we met for that trip, but though those are amazing undoubtedly, it's also about showing up when life is messy. Between us, we've navigated jobs, heartbreaks, burnout, career changes, and somehow we've been each other's sounding boards through all of it. And I'm glad we had a great foundation from the very start. Let's talk about that side of friendship, the late night calls, the honest advice, the times we had to lean on each other.

(00:14:50):

Thinking back on the five years to date, what stands out for you? I'll start as you're thinking about your own experiences. I think that it's so interesting that that trip, we're going to refer to it a lot because at the time when we had that trip, I was doing business, I was working in Uganda and though I had some intention to go back to school, it wasn't immediate that, "Okay, I need to go back to school right now, right now." Because I had started testing the money if you have no idea, money's sweet when you're out of school and you get your first job. But I remember when we met, Margaret had just graduated from a master's program. Dorcas was already graduated from a master's program and I was the only one in the middle and I was like, "Hmm, maybe I need to go back to school right now because the people that I'm hanging out with, and again, the conversations were so great and deep and aspirational, I was like, I think I need to go back to school right now and I need to be thinking about it more closely." And I know that was such a defining moment for me to continue pursuing my master's applications more intentionally and seriously because of the interactions we had at that time.

(00:16:14):

And I can also think about just more recently when I moved to the US and there's so much that has happened, right? I went through a terrible heartbreak and let me tell you, these girls held me. These girls held me. And in that moment, I really understood the value of having people who create a safe space for you to cry, for you to talk through things, and for you to figure it out at your own pace, but you are sure the support is literally around you. So for me, those are the things that I can point out to at the moment because they were such meaningful to me. Dorcas, what stands out for you, a particular moment in time? 

Dorcas Nakachwa(00:17:00):

All Right. So for me, yeah, the heartbreak, haven't we all? But for me, the moment that stands out the most was last year in 2024. I was in the midst of a very difficult career moment and we've obviously, you're my close friends. I mean, you carried me through this thing, but for the listeners, I was at a time where I needed to explicitly communicate my value to my manager at that time because ... So just a little background, I am an engineering professional and if you know, engineering is largely male dominated and I also happen to be a proud black female African and I found myself in situations where the people that I was working with did not ... I had to ... They didn't ... I know my value, but they didn't exactly see that. And I was at a point in time where I needed to communicate my value, more or less to say I was in a toxic workplace and I needed to find a way out, but also I also had to think about different things like my financial sustenance and just being able to do things right because I came to Canada as an international student and I didn't know the system.

(00:18:40):

I had no clue how to navigate the system. And these two girls were my sounding boards and they're the people that I debriefed with at the end of every interaction at the workplace during that time and told them, "Hey, this and this happened." And they suggested things to do. And I am happy to say that I am at the other end of that experience. I learned a great deal out of that, but I would not have come out of that experience without the handholding of my friends because they held me, they held my hands. They literally, their words of encouragement, their affirmations. When you're going through a difficult time and someone is doubting your value, you need people who know you who are going to speak into you and these girls spoke into my life and they reminded me of all the things that I was able to do that I've done in the past and they encouraged me not to let this very specific experience.

(00:19:46):

I've had great experiences in my career, but this moment was a particularly difficult one and they helped me at a time where it was very difficult. They helped me see my value and also helped me come out of that and I am so very grateful for them.

Angella Nantambi (00:20:07):

Great. That was a tough time and it was a learning experience for us as well as your friends because we are all navigating different careers and it may not be the same experience we are navigating, but it's definitely a lesson for all of us. So it was much as it was a difficult time for you, it was a learning experience for us and I'm not sure about Margaret, but it was just lovely again to see us navigate this because it was a first time for all of us. We hadn't been there before, but again, when you have the foundation, it doesn't matter whatever comes your way, you just find a way of making it work and navigating it together. So I'm glad you shared that you shared about that. Meg, what's been your moment? What stands out to you? 

Margaret Odero (00:20:53):

I was trying to think of something that's more positive, but I think the positive ones have been a lot and I don't know if it's just human nature, but like somehow it feels like, wow, without you guys that difficult moment, I wouldn't have gone through it, but maybe I would have been able to go through the positive ones. And so I'm just going to share something that's on the not so bright side, which I think is definitely something that would be way more difficult for me to navigate if I didn't have you guys. So it's about relationships.

Angella Nantambi (00:21:38):

Oh my God, we keep going back there too.

Margaret Odero (00:21:42):

You guys know, we've all had our heartbreaks and so forth, but I think for me, I want to talk more about not even the time my relationship was ending, it was that time my relationship was still ongoing and there was some very difficult things. And not to say that I'm not the type to solve with my partner, I come discuss with friends, no. These were certain moments where it was hard for both myself and my partner. It wasn't my partner and I are fighting, it was my partner and I are fighting not against each other, but against one, a certain difficulty. And it was so hard for me because it was a time ... I don't know how to say this because, of course, I don't want to say things explicitly, but it was a time where we were trying to overcome a certain hurdle in our relationship.

(00:22:51):

And so we were trying different channels, different routes, different ways, and each time I would think of something and try it and it would fail and it'd be so heartbreaking for me. And of course, after crying out with a partner, I was just like, "Okay, you guys, what can I do? " And having you two ... And I remember I would just call you guys I think at like weird times and for context, I think people already know that we're in different time zones. I'm in Nairobi in Kenya and you're in Montreal. Okay. All right. Yeah. So I want to say that specifically during a period in my relationship that was so difficult and you guys could somehow help, but we tried brainstorming and trying to come up with different solutions. One solution after the other just wasn't working and each time something failed, it was so heartbreaking.

(00:24:02):

So I'm just going to say how hard that period my life was and how it was so great to have you guys accessible to me, even though we're on different time zones.

Angella Nantambi (00:24:16):

Isn't it interesting that somehow we're going to always find, we are always going to be in relationships with opposite gender and somehow things may go well or things may go bad, but it's always nice to know that regardless, I have my community, I have my group, I have my tribe that will take me through this difficult season or joyful season for that matter. Dorcas, you have something to say?

Dorcas Nakachwa(00:24:44):

I wanted to say something about what Meg shared. Meg, we are all in different time zones, but I think we have created a safe space for us to be able to come and be vulnerable and just share. And I know that when I come to you girls, you're not going to judge me, you're not going to ... You girls are my safe space and I am able to tell you everything. However, one thing that I'm so appreciative of that Meg has mentioned is we do have what you could say an open door policy. So in as much as we are all in different time zones, we have a group where SOS, we have an SOS kind of thing of, you know, girls, I need to, I'm going through this. Is someone on the call? And it's so amazing how whenever each one of us comes to that group to, if you want to vent or you want to share good news, by the way, good news as well for things that have happened.

(00:25:53):

I did get a promotion sometime, I remember, and I came to you girls and Meg, we all got a promotion and you Angie as well for your achievements you've done at work and you come and say, "Hey guys, you know this and this and we're all very happy for you. " But in times where you need to talk to someone, someone will pick up the call, either if Meg will pick up or Angie will pick up or if it's Meg, either I or Angie will pick up even though we're in different time zones, I'm so appreciative that we've made that commitment. It's not just in words that we are doing that life together, we've actually made the commitment to do life together. And as we are talking about relationships, I felt because you girls gave me the model of what a healthy relationship is.

(00:26:40):

Yeah. You guys gave me the blueprint and because we've done this thing for some time, I feel confident navigating my relationships now, my romantic relationships like non-platonic relationships. And I mean, there are two different dynamics, but even when it comes to communication, when it comes to conflict resolution, I don't know if we'll get there, but it's not been ... We have resolved conflicts in the five years we've been together and we have something, a model that works for us. So I'm so appreciative of the fact that there's that commitment of, and just that has just given me the best model to navigate life in my other relationships.

Angella Nantambi (00:27:31):

How beautiful that is. Guys, if you're listening to this podcast today, one, I did not force these, my friends to come and share these things. You're literally having a sneak pick into the kind of conversations we have on a regular basis because I know there are times when we get on our calls and it's affirmation after affirmation, after affirmation after affirmation, there are times we get on our calls and it's joy. We are sharing great things that are happening in our lives and other times we jump on those calls and it's, "I'm fighting for my life and I need the support." So it's such a good balance and I'm glad that you pointed that out Docus. I know we're going to get to the point of how we've managed to navigate across different time zones because the different scenarios that you have all listened to, dear listener, these are scenarios that have happened where we are all in different countries and we've somehow found a way to hold each other virtually, remotely in our different locations and made that work.

(00:28:36):

Thank God he has given us the grace to navigate this honestly because it has been an interesting thing to watch and observe, at least from a distance. I'm trying to detach from the relationship, by observing it from a distance and how we've been able to navigate that has been such a beautiful thing to see. So one thing that I value so much in this friendship is that we don't just cheer on each other. We hold each other accountable and sometimes that means saying the hard truths or teaching oneself or teaching ourselves about different things that we want to navigate in this life. I want us to reflect on those moments where we have challenged each other, maybe even disagreed, and how did that shape the way we've grown, both as friends, as individuals? And as you think about your responses, one moment that really comes at me is the money conversation.

(00:29:35):

We met at a very interesting time when we were in school, though the relationship had not fully formed at that point, but we knew each other at that time. And when we met, when we had that trip, we had conversations, a broad spectrum of things as you can imagine that happen in life. And one topic that came out of that discussion was money. Money talks. Now, we all know people don't want to talk about what's in their bank accounts, rightfully so, but I think the openness with which we actually shared with one another was the key thing for me because we were just open. How much do you make? How much are you charging? Are you charged? Okay, maybe this ... I remember the time Margaret was interviewing for a job and she was literally checking in. Wait, what should I ask them? Let's do a benchmark based on what you guys are making.

(00:30:33):

Let's do a benchmark here. What is reasonable? And at that time, I saw how open we were about money and it didn't end there. I think down the line, we all got into employment and the thing that comes with money as a young person is, are you going to spend it or are you going to invest it? Or are you going to put it somewhere more meaningful? Right? And I know we had extensive conversations on our calls where money was the conversation. Money was the topic of discussion. And one of us, Margaret took this to a whole new level and just educated herself about managing money. And each time she came back to the group, she was sharing all these lessons she was picking up from all the different places and sharing it with us. And it touched enough within me. It touched enough. And I felt like, hmm, now I need to jump onto this money management thing because I think if we are able to manage our money right now well enough, I think we are going to be fine.

(00:31:37):

We're going to be fine. Okay? We don't have to worry about our 54 years of age retirement plan if we start now. And I was so grateful that we had such a space to talk about money freely and openly as much as it sounds like a taboo within relationship. I mean, money is one of the main reasons people divorce and end relationships, but for the fact that we were able to openly talk about it, it was such a wonderful experience for me. So that was such an accountable thing that I think in you sharing with us, Margaret, you didn't realize, but that way you are holding us accountable. And when we came back, we had something to say in those conversations. So that's one thing for sure.

Margaret Odero (00:32:26):

When we went for that trip in Jinja, you both challenged me so much when it came to mind, because I think at the time I was so naive. I didn't know. And I think that's how come I even went to that trip because I had saved money during my master's degree. I had saved some money and I was like, okay, so once people save money, because I think I hadn't had a certain amount of money in my account. And so I had saved money and now I had a certain amount and I'm like, "What do people actually do once they save money?" I was like, "Okay, let me take a trip to Jinja." I mean, I do have the money. But then I was like, "How do people remain rich? Do you just keep saving?" And when I came to that chip, you guys had done certain things with your finances that were so inspiring and so challenging to me that it took ... I think that specific inspiration is what pushed me to be so intentional about learning about finances to an extent that I came back and now you both who are the ones who inspired me in the first place and now gaining from the knowledge I've gone to collect around.

(00:33:41):

And I think that says something about friendship, that you can just be living your life and having these conversations openly. If you guys didn't say the things you are doing with your finances, I wouldn't have known, I wouldn't have then gone to be inspired and learned about the finances. And in turn, you maybe would still not, maybe or maybe not, would have actually not come to learn from me the things that you've learned. So it says something about friendship, which is your friends are kind of your step, they're stepping stone and they're also your stepping stone. You build on each other. And I think that's quite something that's really beautiful when you say it. And I think even recently we were talking with Dockers about, specifically again, about money. As I said, money comes up a lot in our conversations and she was just saying how one of the decisions she had, she has just talked about a difficult career period in her life last year and one of the decisions she had made about the money, about her finances really saved her during that period.

(00:34:48):

And I think that says a lot. This conversation, one thing about friendship, it needs to build you. The thing I learned from you needs to save me in such an example of such a situation like Dorcas says, and I think that's really, really beautiful about friendships.

Angella Nantambi (00:35:05):

How amazing. Gosh, Dorcas, I know we've all benefited from this money talk. Is there something else that you would think about around how we've kept each other accountable?

Dorcas Nakachwa(00:35:18):

Yeah. You guys have said all the good things about money. I mean, we were, Meg and I, rather Angie and I were doing a different kind of investment and Meg opened us our eyes to another way of managing money that has been very fundamental in our financial life. I think for me, besides money, from you, Meg, as well, and Angie, I would say it's about relationships. Here we are again, I feel like you two are very calm, are very Zen and how you handle conflict. So I'll talk about Meg specifically. I think what I've learned from Meg is how she's held me accountable is in a situation of conflict, how to compact mentalize things so that you are levelheaded during a conflict and you ask questions like you're not just lashing out, you ask to understand and not to react. And I think Meg is very good at that.

(00:36:42):

Angie is also very good at that. Angie and I, by the way, run a nonprofit and we don't always agree, but I think we have practiced hearing each other's different point of views and coming to the middle ground and during the times when we are not agreeing, just deciding to take a pause and say, "Hey, let's go. Let's give it some time and then we can come back to this conversation." And the thing is that has held that these interactions make specifically how she handles conflict in her non-platonic relationships outside of us. And like she shares how she does it and my view, Angie, I think that has held me accountable in a way of how I handle conflict in my other relationships. And I think it has taught me that I think what I learned is conflict is not bad. We grew up in different households, we have different opinions of things, but how you handle the conflict matters.

(00:37:57):

And for me before, in my relationships, I've always been the kind of person who, "Okay, you know what? It has happened now. I want us to resolve it now." But it's not the most effective way to handle conflict. So you two girls have taught me that it's okay to just sit with your emotions a little bit, go think about it and come back and have a code your relationship and air out how you feel. And I think I trust that you guys have made me believe that-

Angella Nantambi (00:38:33):

We listen and we don't judge.

Dorcas Nakachwa(00:38:36):

We listen and we don't judge. So I think that has been ... You've held me accountable.

Angella Nantambi (00:38:46):

Yeah. It's interesting you say that because we've had some conflicts where we are not agreeing, we are not on the same page and some have been very intense. I'm laughing because one comes to mind where it was really intense. And I think that knowing at the back of your mind that this is only a roadblock, it's not going to end the relationship. It's not going to end the friendship. We're just going through something where we don't agree, we are not on the same page, but how we've come back and actually said, "I don't like the way you did A, B, C, D." And the recognition of the other person to be like, "Oh, I had no idea what I did or what I said affected you that way." I'm sorry. I think that I definitely think that has been a great way to navigate how we move and knowing that we are going to clash.

(00:39:44):

And let me remind us of one thing that we went on another trip and Meg said, I remember that, and she keeps bringing this back to other group, is that I want you guys to know. And this was a Zen, happy, joyous moment. We were all having a good time. We're having great food. And she said that, "I hope you guys know that if in the future, if anything happened, just know that I would never do anything to harm or attack or anything. I would never do anything. None of us would never do anything out of bad intentions. It's not for the wrong reasons that we are behaving a certain type of way. There's so many things happening externally that could hinder how we show up here in this friendship. And I hope you know that whatever it is, it's not against you. It's for you.

(00:40:36):

And I think we've continued to remind ourselves in times when we disagreed that she's probably going through something, we need to give her more support. She's showing up differently now. Maybe something is up and we need to check in more. I think that that is such a beautiful way to handle conflict and just to check in on each other and recognize, hmm, I know this person is always joyous in the group, but today she's a bit cold, something is up and being able to recognize that and following up and checking in. Right. Isn't it nice that we have training grounds to learn, make mistakes, and have room to experiment with so many different things and apply those in our other relationships, in our romantic relationships. It's beautiful because you know this is like a safe space. It's like being an intern in a company where you are allowed to make mistakes and you know you're going to be mentored, corrected somehow, and you guys are that.

(00:41:43):

Wow, I love that. I love that for us, honestly. And I hope for the person listening today, the goal of this conversation is to show you what's possible with friendships, but to also remind you that the people around you, until you intentionally form those relationships, until you intentionally seek them out, it's not just going to happen by surprise, it's going to require some work, it's going to require accountability, openness, all the different things we've described here. I hope it's an illustration of what's possible for girls, for women, for men who are listening to this podcast, to again, commune and thrive in spaces where you're loved and encouraged to grow. Like I said at the very beginning of the episodes, the introduction episode, if you listen to it, the theme that I keep hearing from every listener, from every guest I have is how important community is.

(00:42:41):

And for us here, this is community and this is how it has shown up for us. It has told us to grow. It has told us to be who we are at this point in time. Dorcas, you have something to say.

Dorcas Nakachwa Margaret Odero (00:42:54):

Yeah. You know what? I was going to bring that example and you did, but I just want to reiterate that that space, I always go back to that specific line. And I think that's really great for a foundation for friendship and even romantic relationship, because trust you me, I have lifted it as it is, and I've put it in my romantic relationships so that you know people are always going to step on your foot one way or the other. The more you interact, the more likely that somebody is going to annoy you or do something to upset you. But if there's a foundation of the knowledge that I know you will not do that intentionally, I know you will not intentionally say certain things or do certain things that will upset me in this certain way. And I think that's a very comforting thing because then it tells me I'm able to actually go back and have a conversation and say this, this and that.

(00:43:58):

Because if that was not the foundation, you'd find you'd feel maybe that there's no reason why I should even have a conversation about this. Let me just add ties because you'd probably assume bad intent in the first place. So I think that's a really, really key one for me. At least I think it's for you guys as well, but for me, that's one thing that I always go back to and best believe I've lifted it and planted it right into my romantic relationships as well.

Margaret Odero (00:44:28):

Yeah. I wanted to say that, yeah, exactly what I'd said before, you guys have given me the blueprint of what a healthy relationship should be like. And like what Meg said, I think one of the things that have allowed our friendship to thrive is because what she said, we don't mean there's no bad intent. We genuinely want to see each one of us thrive and just knowing that at the back of our minds. And I guess that's why there's transparency, I am able to come and be transparent with you guys because I know I'm not going to feel mocked or anything. I'm here to learn from you guys and we all want each one of us to thrive. I guess that is the whole point. And I think that's why there's no competition really. We are just thriving together and we want to see each other thrive romantically, financially, just in life in general.

(00:45:35):

And yeah, to your point, Angie as well, community, like you guys are my community, you're my people. And this friendship has taught me that you really can do life alone. You need people that you can trust. You need people who can gently hold you accountable and you need a safe space where people, you can be yourself around people. I think that this friendship has also allowed me to understand that.

Angella Nantambi (00:46:08):

Wow. Beautiful. Oh my gosh. Please, we are not accepting any more applications to be friends with other people. No. No, please. A hundred percent. Okay. That was a joke to make you laugh. Okay. Tighten up a bit. So now let's talk about the reality of adulthood, right? We don't live in the same city, and this is a theme that has come out many times throughout the conversation. We don't live in the same country, we don't live in the same time zone. And we have work schedules, we have responsibilities and lives that look very different from when we first met. How do we keep a friendship alive across distance, across time zones? And what have we learned about staying connected even when life gets really, really busy? I see we are all excited to jump in. Meg?

Margaret Odero (00:47:05):

Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say when you talked about how we keep the friendship going, I think honestly, one of the main things is, especially for a long distance friendship, long distance relationship, you need to intentionally make time to meet. And I think we've really, as much as we can, we've tried to go on trips where we physically are in the same place. And of course, those are very, very rejuvenating. I mean, the conversations during those trips I think are better than the trips. Well, the trips are usually really great, but the conversations, I think it's just like in a romantic relationship, of course you need the physical presence. So I think that is one thing, try as much as possible to meet, especially for a long distance situation like this. The other thing, I don't know if I'm going to say all the points, but I think if I say all the points, you can always reiterate.

(00:48:10):

The other thing, again, I'm going to go back to agreeing, speaking during moments when you're not in conflict and saying that I know that I want you, like just all of us knowing that if I ever do anything that you feel upset about, just know that I did not do that with intent to upset you so that when you carry that with you, when in future you get upset, you're able to come back and have a conversation. And just now to build on that, I think creating that safe conversation space where I can actually come and have a difficult conversation with you. Difficult conversations are difficult, all right? So it's not very easy. Even with somebody that you're very close with, even with friends, even with your romantic partner, it's not easy, but I think it makes it a lot easier knowing that, "Oh, this friendship has not ended just because this thing upset this person." We have the room to have a conversation and actually resolve and move on.

(00:49:19):

So I think those ... Let me stop at that. If I remember anything that you guys will not say, then I'll add it. Yeah.

Dorcas Nakachwa(00:49:27):

Yeah. I think for me, it's the commitment. You have to do the work. Every friendship, relationship involves some bit of work. And I think what we've done, like Meg said, what we've been able to show up for each one of us, like we have ... Whenever we feel like ... We don't take more than two weeks without actually having a more intentional chat. And it's not biweekly, but it could be more times in a week. But like you said, adulting and we all have different schedules and life is happening, but I think what has helped is Angie coming and checking in and say, "Hey, we are due for a chat and agreeing and allocating time to actually be able to chat, even though we are in different time zones." I think the other thing too is, and also acknowledging the fact that we are not the beat and end all for each us.

(00:50:31):

Meg and Angie are on the beat and end of it all for me. I do have physically here friendships that I go to. I have church friends and I know that when I go to church, these are my people and in different spheres of life, I'm sure Angie and Meg as well, you guys have friends wherever you are. So yeah, just to reiterate the physical thing, but most importantly, yeah, just acknowledging that Angie has people that she will go and hike out with and she will have a great time and Meg will also go hiking as well and have a great time. So yeah.

Angella Nantambi (00:51:11):

Yeah. I'm glad that you mentioned that we are not the end and be it all for everyone. We have relationships outside this group because we are not physically in the same location. I wish we were, but when that is not the case, again, surrounding yourself with people in person that fuel you as an individual in the physical space that you're in, because much as Dorcas and Margaret may want to fully understand what's happening in my life right here in Arizona with the heat of 114 degrees, they will not fully get it, but the person that I'm with next to me is going to be able to understand that and be open to take me out for ice cream or something like that. So I think you bring up a good point of having physical friendships outside this group, not making someone like ... And the other thing that I like about us is in situations where we've not been able to meet the three of us, we've had one-on-one interactions.

(00:52:17):

So I'll reach out to Margaret and be like, "Hey, what's our point? What's going on? " When time zones allow us, because again, it's a balancing game of who is awake and who is not and what's the middle ground for me to check in with this person. I think we've done that well where Margaret has checked in on Dorcas and we know that we are, again, checking up on each other and making sure we know what's happening in each other's lives. And when we meet as a three tri-group, we are like, "Yeah, I checked in with Dorcas and she's that and that. " I think that is another way we've tried to keep up with the different time zones and staying connected regardless. And I think previously we've had a schedule where we're like Friday night we are having a good time and chatting, get your drinks ready, sit down, have a good chat.

(00:53:07):

And our conversations, trust me, this one is going to be one hour long, but typically our conversations go for hours and I'm talking three plus. So when we meet, it's intentionally sitting and hearing and checking in and listening and contributing to the bigger conversation, whatever it is we are having. Usually there's no agenda. You just go in and you share and it's such a beautiful experience. Meg.

Margaret Odero (00:53:34):

I wanted to kind of go a bit back to the point on having other friends outside of this group. Just, I don't know if this is what you meant when you said like just because we're remote in a remote relationship, you need physical. But I also really think that even when you're in a physical relationship or short distance relationship, that one friend doesn't have to be your everything. Honestly, you need to still have friend ... I mean, you've gone through different phases of life. You've been through maybe say high school, you've been through undergrad for the people who've been through masters and even PhDs and like jobs and so forth. Along the way in your different spheres of life, you've interacted with different people, some have stuck, others haven't. And so the ones who have stuck, I think it's important that you're able to feed those different aspects of yourself and not thrive, not starve yourself of that richness of diverse friendships just because you have this one.

(00:54:41):

This doesn't have to be everything for you. I just wanted to emphasize that even in a physical relationship, you still don't have to, but it would be nice to have interactions in other different areas so that you're not just depending on one.

Angella Nantambi (00:54:59):

Okay. Okay. Yeah, that's beautiful, honestly. We can't make one person the source of our joy, the source of our happiness. I think having a good balance of different people around you, I think is a great thing. Great. Okay. We're going to make things a bit fun and let's see who knows who the better, who knows. I hope you know yourselves, honestly. So before we close, let's lighten things up a little bit with a little game. We're going to play who's most likely to. And we will each say the first person that comes to mind, no explanations, okay? Just gut reactions. Okay? Just, I'm going to read out the who's most likely sentence and I'll call Dorcas to say the name and migrate to say the name and I'll say the name and that's it. No debate. All right. So who's most likely to text back in the group chat last?

Margaret Odero (00:56:02):

Meg

Angella Nantambi (00:56:03):

Dorcas.

Margaret Odero (00:56:03):

Yeah, 100% me.

Angella Nantambi (00:56:06):

For sure. I'll say Margaret too. Who's most likely to cry during a movie? Dorcas. Meg. Don't still be me. Margaret. Margaret. And I would say Margaret too. Who's most likely to give the best advice? Dorcas. Both of you. Who's most likely? That's the question.

Dorcas Nakachwa(00:56:37):

Oh my God. No, come on. Both of you. Awful

Angella Nantambi (00:56:40):

Discussions. Both of you. That was not the intention of this who's most likely. Okay? Yeah.

Margaret Odero (00:56:49):

To give the best advice. I think we always say that we all give best advice, but like when it comes to the decision, it's you, the subject, the conversation that needs to ...

Dorcas Nakachwa(00:57:02):

We always preface that and say, "Hey, if I were you, this is what I would do, but at the end of the day, this is your decision to make." Yeah. But both of you give great advice.

Angella Nantambi (00:57:13):

That was a trick question. I'm glad you passed. Who's most likely to forget a birthday?

Dorcas Nakachwa(00:57:23):

None of us. None of us.

Angella Nantambi (00:57:26):

Okay. You guys, why are you being too nice? Okay.

Dorcas Nakachwa(00:57:29):

No, we do show up for each other's birthdays. We did show up for Meg's birthday this year, March 20. We've always done that. You as well, and both of you also show up for my birthday as well. So yeah.

Angella Nantambi (00:57:48):

Okay. Okay. All right. Cool. Who's most likely to book a spontaneous trip? Who's most likely Dorcas?

Dorcas Nakachwa(00:57:58):

I want to say Meg.

Angella Nantambi (00:57:59):

Margaret.

Margaret Odero (00:58:00):

So yeah, I would say me, but it has to be a hiking trip because I'm parking for one now.

Dorcas Nakachwa(00:58:07):

Right. But Angie as well, you too. You often travel.

Angella Nantambi (00:58:11):

I would say me because Meg is the planner. I feel like a lot of the trips she's got to take, she has planned at least two weeks before.

Margaret Odero (00:58:20):

Yeah, that's true. I mean, yeah, most of the time when I'm taking trips, if I didn't plan for it, best believe someone dragged me to it. So it's either a partner or ... If it's me, it's planned. Actually, that's true. It's probably Angie. Yeah.

Dorcas Nakachwa(00:58:37):

Yeah. Right. I think Angie's the most spontaneous of all of us, by the way. So yeah. Yeah.

Angella Nantambi (00:58:43):

Okay. Last one. Who's most likely to tell you the hard truth, no sugarcoating? Says it as it is.

Margaret Odero (00:58:52):

Dorcas.

Angella Nantambi (00:58:55):

That's true. That's true. That's true. I mean- Dorcas. Yeah. I'll give it to Dorcas on that one. I think she's the most blunt in the group. Okay. Yeah. All right. So as we wrap up, that was fun. Thank you. I think you passed a couple questions. I put in some of them to trick you guys, but you were smart enough. So as we wrap up, I want to invite our listeners to think about the friendships in their own lives, the ones that have shaped them, the ones that have challenged them, or carried them through like we described. Ours is just an example. Maybe you've got a friend who's been there for you for years, or maybe someone new who just showed up at just the right time and you made a connection with those people. Take a moment to honor that friendship, send a text, make a call, or just pause to reflect on the impact those people have had on your life.

(00:59:50):

Friendships aren't always flashy, but they are powerful and they make life worthwhile. So before we close, I would love for each one ... One of us to share one piece of advice for anyone listening who wants to nurture friendship and get the best out of it. What advice would you give them?

Margaret Odero (01:00:10):

I would say assume good intentions and have good intentions.

Angella Nantambi (01:00:15):

That's short and sweet. I think that's the foundation. Have good intentions for everybody. Dorcas, what do you think?

Dorcas Nakachwa(01:00:24):

I would say friendships take work to do, but it's beautiful work to do. And when you commit to it, experiencing friendship is one of the sweetest ways to enjoy life. Yeah. Right.

Angella Nantambi (01:00:37):

Wow. That's beautiful. I would say, I guess it goes back to Maggie's point, just be intentional. And when you meet the person that you align with and feel like you gel really well, put in the work and plan things together, intentionally go out and have interest in knowing about them because I think a lot of times people are so surface level that it's I, I, I, I. But if you remove that mask and actually intentionally seek out the person in front of you and be interested in their life, what they care about, what they're scared of, what they want their life to be, and find ways to support them. Because like Maggie mentioned in the podcast, friendships that don't build you, bore you and are really, really tasking. It's hard to show up for those friendships, but friendships that build you and add value to your life, you find a reason to show up every single day.

(01:01:41):

So that would be my piece of advice. And that's it for today's episode of Turning Points, Stories of Change and Growth. A huge thank you to my lovely friends, Dorcas Nakachwa and Margaret Odero for joining me in this conversation and for being living proof of what it means to grow through life together. If you enjoyed today's episode, share it with a friend. Better yet, use it as an excuse to reconnect with someone that has changed your life. Until next time, I'm Angela Nantambi. Stay grounded, stay connected and keep celebrating the friendships that make you who you are. Bye.