#TheHustle: Eugene Awori - Private Equity Professional; MBA candidate & Knight Hennessy Scholar @Stanford Graduate School of Business

In this episode, Eugene discusses the value of seeking advice and help from mentors while at the same time lending a helping hand whenever you can. With an undergraduate degree in Actuarial Science, he expected that his career options would be limited to pension or insurance. Guidance from great managers and bosses exposed Eugene, early on, to the numerous paths available to him. He has had significant experience working at top firms across different geographies including the International Finance Corporation, Actis and Centum in England, Kenya and the US. He shares with us some of the lessons he’s learned over time which have helped guide his personal and professional successes. Eugene pays it forward by co-running a twitter handle where he posts on job and scholarship-related opportunities. To stay updated, follow finance_501 on twitter and look out for their website-launch this winter.

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Transcript

Halle Rubera (00:02):

Hi, and welcome to The Hustle, a professional development podcast series in partnership with the MasterCard Foundation Scholars Program. I'm your host, [Halle 00:00:11] [Rubera 00:00:11], an alum of the MasterCard Foundation Scholars Program at Wellesley College. With this series, I will share the stories of accomplished African professionals from different backgrounds currently working in investment banking, management consulting, big tech, and more. Each episode discusses the wide area of career opportunities and provides listeners with advice about working at top firms, such as Goldman Sachs, Facebook, and Novartis. The title of this podcast, The Hustle, is an [inaudible 00:00:41] to my hometown of Nairobi, Kenya, which I love and where the spirit of the hustle, hard work and resilience shines bright.

Halle Rubera (00:50):

Today, I have the pleasure of hosting Eugene Awori. Eugene earned a BS in actuarial science from the University of Nairobi, is currently an MBA candidate and Knight-Hennessy Scholar at Stanford university. This past summer, spent his time at Actis in London. Actis is a leading investor in growth markets across Africa, Asia, and Latin America. And his past experience has been at Endeavor, IFC, Centum Investment Company, all these big financial services companies. Eugene is originally from Nairobi, Kenya. Eugene, welcome to the podcast. Please tell us a little bit about your interest in private equity, and how you describe it to an audience unfamiliar with this industry?

Eugene Awori (01:32):

Well, thank you. Thank you very much, Halle and MasterCard Foundation Scholars for having me on your podcast. So I think just for those who are not familiar with private equity, investment professionals are classified broadly into two different fields: those who work in public markets, and those who work in private markets. So public markets focuses on companies and securities that are listed in public stock exchanges like the New York Stock Exchange, London Stock Exchange, or the Nairobi Stock Exchange, while private investors focus on companies and securities that are not listed in these exchanges.

Eugene Awori (02:10):

So these are usually companies that are probably not big enough or they've just chosen to remain private. Private equity comes in a bit earlier than public equity. What you mostly see is that private equity investors will use the stock market as a way to exit their investment over time. So they'll buy a private company, grow it for a period of say, five years, and then the company would do an IPO and then become a public company. My interest in private equity is mostly because it's a bit more challenging than investing in public companies, one, because you don't have that much information.

Eugene Awori (02:49):

I think listed companies have a lot of information available, because they are required by law to do these disclosures, while private companies are a lot more secretive about how they run, and that allows an investor, a good investor, to be able to make slightly higher returns than those in the public markets. So I think that's one thing. And then I think also increasingly, just because of what technology is doing to market, there's a lot of new and innovative companies that come up. I think working in private equity allows you to see this company when they're still younger and a lot more exciting. So that's pretty much where my interest in private equity comes in, and it's a field that I hope to continue to work in for the foreseeable future.

Halle Rubera (03:36):

Thank you for sharing that. That was really in-depth. This summer, you worked specifically as an associate in the energy and infrastructure sector at Actis. Can you tell us a little bit about why you chose to be on this team and also at this company?

Eugene Awori (03:52):

First of all, I love emerging markets, just to quote the CEO of the first company I worked in, which is Centum. He always said that we're very lucky to be born in Africa, because there's a lot to be done. As the case for emerging market, there are a lot more work to be done in emerging markets. And so, whatever work or project you engage in often has a very high ripple effect on society. Of course, emerging markets are more challenging, because of your information assymetry and just the current set of development of those countries. I've always worked in emerging markets, and I think I went to business school knowing that I want to remain in emerging markets.

Eugene Awori (04:31):

If you look at emerging markets, Actis is the leading private equity firm and emerging markets across the global south. Also interestingly, Actis has been recognized as the impact fund of the year for a couple of years now. So Actis has a high focus on impact, and I want the work that I do to not just earn a high return for shareholders, but also to have a positive impact on society. I think Actis does that, and that's how I ended up choosing to work at Actis for the summer. I worked in the energy and infrastructure team. What you typically do in such a team is that you mostly invest in public... Infrastructure as a public asset. So I'll give you an example.

Eugene Awori (05:16):

If a country is building, say, a toll road or a new airport or a power plant, energy is very big at Actis. So Actis would come in and invest in such a project, like buy equity in this project and on the project and drive the execution of that. Governments don't have enough money to build all the infrastructure that's needed. While some of these infrastructure will be built by the government, some of it, the government will let the private players come in under what you call a public-private partnership agreement. So the private company would drive the process, and the government would then provide some securities for these investor.

Eugene Awori (06:00):

So a company like Actis would come to a country like Kenya and either build a power plant or purchase. At times, governments also develop this project like power plants and toll roads, and then over time, they run out of cash. And so as a way to get additional cash, they privatize these projects. So private equity investors would come and bid, and then compete to own and operate as such projects. So, your work would mostly involve analyzing this project to see if the company would make money or not.

Halle Rubera (06:30):

Eugene, your previous work experience denotes almost a straight line from your time as a VC Associate at Endeavor. You did impact investing at the International Finance Corporation. And then as an investment associate at Centum, how did you settle on a career in financial services? Can you walk us through your decision-making process as pertains to your career choices?

Eugene Awori (06:52):

Well, so my dad was a math teacher, and he only used to check my math grade. So I remember, every time you got home with the report card, he would... Actually, he would know your math grade before you even arrived, before you got home. He'd call the teacher and find out what grade you got. He'd know what question you failed. As soon as you opened the door, he'd have the question down for you and ask you to solve it. I think I took that from my dad, and I ended up loving maths and enjoying doing maths. That's how in high school I got the advice to pursue actuarial science in undergrad. So I went to University of Nairobi and did exactly that, and I really enjoyed it. I realized it's actually something that I find quite easy.

Eugene Awori (07:40):

And then, I was lined up to join the insurance industry, which is where many actuarial science graduates end up, in insurance or pension, but I realized that the industry is not growing as fast as I would like. That's when I met alums who had gone into investment, and I think they were very excited and fired up about what they were doing. That's how I ended up choosing to do investment as opposed to being and working in the actuarial or risk department of an insurance company. I have not regretted that decision since. I think I was also very fortunate to get very good bosses at every job that I've had, and I think those have validated my interest and made me feel like I chose the correct career path.

Eugene Awori (08:30):

I think what I like about investment is that every time you look at a new project, it's almost like you're starting an entirely new job. Because even if it's the same sector like energy, if you're working on a geothermal project, then tomorrow you're working on gas power project. It's a totally different field, and you have to learn a lot about that particular industry. So it doesn't feel like you're doing the same thing over and over again, and it's very detailed. So if you're doing venture capital, which is pre early-stage versus private equity, which is late stage, more mature companies, and then working for a development finance institution like IFC, which is very focused on debt rather than equity investment. So I think if you keep... I think that switching between industries, projects and regions as well, I've been fortunate to work in different continents, has kept it exciting for me, and I think it's something that I still want to do.

Halle Rubera (09:32):

I'm just listening to you, and one of my follow-up questions was actually, did you anticipate that your bachelor's degree would lead you to this point? And have you had to adjust your goals and perspectives over the years? And it seems to me that you have, because you've alluded to it in your response. But I'm just so curious to know, how do you even figure out that you're in a space? You obviously would probably feel the discomfort of not growing, but how would you know what next steps to take? You mentioned that you had good bosses. You mentioned that you interacted with alumni. Is that something that students should actively be doing, like reaching out to veterans in different professions or different industries and seeking advice in order to make decisions about where to make their next move?

Eugene Awori (10:13):

Yes, exactly. So I think the first step in finding out what you want to do is to first know your options. What I noticed, I think now being in an American school, I think their schools they do a very good job in showing students what their options are. That wasn't the case when I was in undergrad. We all believe the only thing you can with an actuarial science degree is to work for an insurance company. So the first thing is for students to know their options. I know we'll talk about this later, but that's why I started Finance_501, which is to try and help finance students in Africa and those of African origin to see how the broad options they have are, and to make a better decision about what they'd like to do.

Eugene Awori (10:59):

So the first thing is to know your options. Fortunately now, there are a lot of internet tools to help you do that. If you're pursuing economics at Yale, for instance, you can easily go to Yale's page and check out the economics students and what they do. I think the breadth of what the alumni at Yale do for example would help you figure out, okay, I don't have to box myself into one field. There's actually 20 different things I can do. And then the next thing is to speak to people. Every time, I didn't know what to do next, I always looked five, 10 years down the line, and you look at people who are five, 10 years ahead of you and ask yourself who you want to be like.

Eugene Awori (11:37):

So if you're working at a company and you're looking at your manager and you're thinking, in 10 years, I don't want to be this person, then [inaudible 00:11:44] it's probably time to make a move. So I think that's how I've done it. I've looked up and seen, okay, I think I want to be like this person, and this person, and this person, and then started the path that they took. That all has made it clear to me what the next part needed to be. I wanted to be a top finance professional in Africa. I looked at the people in that space that I respect, people like Kenya Central Bank Governor, Dr. Patrick Njoroge. When I look at them, I realize they've all either studied or spent some time studying and working abroad.

Eugene Awori (12:19):

It became very clear to me that if I stay in Kenya, well, while it's possible to achieve [inaudible 00:12:25] it's going to be very hard because most of the people I looked up to had gone through that phase. So I knew that I probably need to spend five years living and working abroad before returning here and expanding my network. I think that's the other thing to do is to look at, you're not the first person to be in that position. People have been there. So just look ahead, look at what those people did when they were your age. You don't have to copy exactly what they did, but that will give you some ideas that might help.

Halle Rubera (12:56):

That's really good advice. For you, what's the best career advice that you've received that's still relevant to you today?

Eugene Awori (13:03):

One is, I remember when I was still a student in college, I was fortunate to get a very good mentor. One thing he told me, I remember when choosing undergraduate courses, there's always the advise high school teachers back home gave us is, you have to choose a course that is marketable. It's a heavy STEM leaning like go to medical school or do engineering or become an architect or a lawyer. So there was always four or five fields that everyone is pushed to pursue, because they're quote unquote marketable. I remember when I started college, and then I met this mentor and I asked him, "So I'm doing actuarial science. Is it really a marketable course?" And he told me, and I've never forgotten, "There's nothing like a marketable course, there's only a marketable graduate."

Eugene Awori (13:58):

So he told me you can study anything. You can do anything. Just having the label alone doesn't make you marketable. You can succeed at virtually anything. I think that has helped me even when it comes to choosing companies to work for. I think we often are very tempted to go for big brands that will look nice in our resumes. But I think even if you go to a big brand and you don't pull your weight while there or you don't get challenging work to do, it's going to show years down the line. So I think there's nothing like... Yes, there are definitely good brands to have on your resume, but the brand alone is not enough, whether it's a school, a course or a company that you're working for. So I think that has helped me to always try and exert myself. Even if I'm somebody that doesn't look like extremely marketable on your resume, I think if you do a good job, people will always notice.

Halle Rubera (14:54):

I really liked that you said that. I think it's been a common theme with some of the other guests that I've had where we had a fixated idea of what we wanted to study, especially because of the direction that our parents and our teachers were pushing us. So I think that what you said is really spot on. It's all about what you do, how you present yourself, what you learn and etc. Thank you for sharing that. So Eugene, you've worked at places like IFC and you've also alluded to how prestigious working at Actis is. I'm so curious to know how does one get their foot in the door in a place like the International Finance Corporation or Actis, or even Stanford, which we'll talk about later? But, yeah.

Eugene Awori (15:36):

Now, that's a really hard question, because eventually when you get hired, you don't really know why. Why exactly was I hired? These places are always extremely competitive. When I applied to the IFC in London, I had never applied to a job abroad. It was the first time I applied for a job abroad. When a friend sent me that job, who was working in London then saw the job and sent it to me and said, "Hey, this looks slightly like what you do. Maybe you should give it a shot." I actually thought he was mad. I remember doing the application just thinking, what am I even doing? I totally forgot about it, until I was invited to the first interview. I think this place always look extremely grand until you get there.

Eugene Awori (16:22):

It's normal people like you who occupy these spaces. And so, nobody should feel intimidated. I don't think you're ever ready to get there, because everyone pretty much learns on the job, I think. But I think what has helped me is trying to know people and expanding your network. If I didn't know a friend who was working in London at that time, I wouldn't have seen the vacancy and applied. He saw the job, and shared it with me. Fortunately, that worked out. I think your network is extremely valuable. I think having a network is not just having 5,000 people on LinkedIn and just adding people on LinkedIn. You get to actively engaging these people that you connect with and focusing on the quality of the networks that you build, and also I'd say helping people.

Eugene Awori (17:18):

It's amazing just how many people have gotten to know because I was trying to help, whether you're organizing a charity dinner, or someone asks you to talk to someone about choosing an undergrad course. If you put yourself out there to help and of course balancing your time and availability, you will be surprised as to how many people you'll get to know. So I think students need to, much as [inaudible 00:17:42] their good grades and all, but also put themselves out there and get to know people. It can be very tempting at times for us as Africans in the diaspora to just huddle together and just all the other guy from Nigeria, Ghana and Ethiopia. But I think expanding and meeting some people from Korea and Guyana and Papua New Guinea is great.

Eugene Awori (18:06):

I think through meeting people and talking to people and hearing what else they are doing and what else is out there and how you can best position yourself is the best way. I always tell people not to apply to a job at a company where they haven't spoken to anyone. The best time to speak to people is when they haven't put up a vacancy. So you can't see... If I work for Actis for example, and you see your role at Actis, you can't then reach out to me then and say, "Hey, how do I get this role?" Because probably, the person you're reaching out to is involved in the recruiting. Maybe he's meant to do an interview, and that may be seen as [inaudible 00:18:41].

Eugene Awori (18:42):

So the best time to connect with people is when they are not recruiting and reach out, ask probing questions, share your ideas, and then show these people that you actually could add something to the team, so that by the time a vacancy shows up, you are the first person on their mind. I think that works pretty well. By the time opening shows up, they know, Hey, I've spoken to Halle. I know she's interested in doing Africa related work, and this role will be a good fit for her. So that someone from the company is [inaudible 00:19:11], hey, this vacancy is open. I hope you've seen it. So I think that would be a way to go.

Halle Rubera (19:20):

You touched upon a couple of good points. I think for me, whenever I think of networking, I [inaudible 00:19:26] network which has, how can I talk to this person and have them tell me what to do, or have them refer me for a position? But I liked what she said about helping out also where you can, and that's also how we got to know each other. I reached out, and you were so willing and open to chat with me. Also, just your point about not necessarily sticking to one circle and getting to know different people, because different people have different ideas and that's how you learn about different opportunities. But even just knowing people in and of itself is a good thing. It doesn't have to be that they should be a return or whatever.

Halle Rubera (20:01):

I also liked that you emphasized that places like Actis and the IFC are taking regular people, regular people as in just me and you, because I think sometimes, it can be so intimidating to try and apply to these places and think I don't deserve it or I can't get in, and that stops people from applying. But I think how you [inaudible 00:20:24] out the steps of even just getting to know people before you need a position. Just knowing people for the sake of knowing people, understanding their journeys. And then if there's a position, then you get to know about it, and that's how you can think about applying. But all great points. So Eugene, you're a recipient of the Knight Hennessy Scholarship at Stanford, one of the most prestigious ones in the world. How has the experience of being part of this program been transformative to you? That's the first question. What advice and encouragement would you share with potential applicants to Stanford and the scholarship program?

Eugene Awori (21:00):

Thanks, Halle. Now, I'll be honest. I think being at Stanford is a big privilege, and I think the way the school invests in its students is nothing I've ever seen. I think it's an amazing place to go to school too. So it hardly gets better than that. I think what the Knight-Hennessy does is to make your experience at Stanford even better if that's possible at all. So I go to the Business School at Stanford, and there's a lot of [inaudible 00:21:38] in business school. There's people from all kinds of backgrounds and all parts of the world, but all of you are pretty much aligned towards either leading or owning a business.

Eugene Awori (21:49):

So everyone is pretty much focused on business. Knight-Hennessy scholarship allows me to step out of that bubble and interact with people who are very deep, compliment the breadth at some depth in interest. So finding someone who's just crazy about gene therapy alone, and that's what they're doing for their PhD, or someone who does classics 24 hours a day. That's the kind of person I'd never met in business school. I think Knight-Hennessy has built a place for us to come together and just hang out and get to learn about what people are doing, what challenges they're trying to solve in the countries they come from, and how you can support that.

Eugene Awori (22:34):

But also to take classes from some of the best professors at Stanford who give short courses at Denning House, and also some really accomplished people in all fields who come and spend two weeks with the scholars. I think that has made my Stanford experience a lot better. I've had opportunities to dine with some of Stanford's most accomplished alumni and most committed donors just to discuss different challenges facing the world. I think I wouldn't have that without the Knight-Hennessy scholarship. In terms of giving advice in how people might land a Knight-Hennessy scholarship, that's very hard. I still don't know how they took me into the program, but I think I'd focus on the three things that their website talks about.

Eugene Awori (23:26):

They're looking for people who out-think their peers, who out work their peers, and who out care their peers. So I think the first two boxes, between your work experience, your academic accomplishments, it's very easy to demonstrate that in terms what you've accomplished at that work, or running a business. Or at school, you can actually demonstrate that you've actually what's extremely hard and you've actually out-thought your peers. You've come up with innovative solutions, be it at work or elsewhere. You've come up with new ideas. So that's the first part. I think you need to tick those two boxes to even get accepted into whatever Stanford school you're applying to.

Eugene Awori (24:10):

And then I think the last box is people who out care their peers. I think the question to answer there is, if Knight-Hennessy spends all those hundreds of thousands of dollars on you to get a graduate education, will it just benefit you or will it benefit your community as well, whatever that community is? I think that can be shown from some of the things you engage in in your current community, but also what you want to do with that education. So what are your long-term goals, and will they have a positive impact? I think Stanford is a lot about changing and improving the world. So does what you want to do in future align with that particular idea? So I think if you can in a way tick those three boxes, then you have a really good shot at getting the Knight-Hennessy scholarship.

Halle Rubera (25:04):

So MBA programs typically admit students from most, if not all, undergraduate degree programs. Why could students consider an MBA, and who do they seek out when making such a decision?

Eugene Awori (25:17):

People from all kinds of backgrounds come to business school. I think what helps you answer that decision depends on what skillsets you're looking for. I had a very technical background working in finance and studying a BS degree, and I wanted to get more soft skills and also to expand my network. That was a good reason to go to business school. At times, some people want to pivot careers. So some people are working say in consulting or finance [inaudible 00:25:54] private equity, or some people are working in tech and they want to do venture capital. So I think MBA degree is very good for pivoting and switching from one career to another, completely changing your career.

Eugene Awori (26:07):

Some people work for nonprofit organization and another one just to do impact investing. Or some people have been working for a while, and now, they want to start a company. So I think an MBA is a good place for people who are looking to transition. It could be you want to change careers, or you want to change location, or you want to change your role within the same industry [inaudible 00:26:29] that require an MBA like, I'm working in private equity. To get to a vice president or principal level, they typically need you to go to a top business school. So some people are going to business school to still stay within the same field. Consultants also fall into that bracket, but some go to transition, and some just go to expand their network. I hadn't lived in the US at all.

Eugene Awori (26:51):

I lived in Africa and in Europe. [inaudible 00:26:55] for me to go to America also get to meet, to build a network in America. I think those are some of the reasons you can go to business school. There are also people who just want to take a break from what they're doing to plan the next many years of their career. So it's an expensive [inaudible 00:27:12] to take, but it's also a good place to go and... Because you'll meet people who've done all sorts of things, and you can speak to these people, and they can support you as you make a transition. If you want to start a company, there's a lot of resources to support you on that while you're in business school. You can also be running a successful startup already. But let's say you're a CS major, you are the CTO of your startup, you know how tech works, but you don't really know how operations, HR, accounting and all these other things that you need to run a business.

Eugene Awori (27:45):

You don't know that stuff that you need to be the CEO. So it could also be a place where you go to just compliment your skillset so that you can be a better manager of a business that you're already running. So I think those are some of the backgrounds that could propel you to go to business school. Of course, a lot of the people, maybe two thirds, three quarter of the people depending on the business, will come from finance, consulting and tech backgrounds. Those three industries, a lot of people come from those industries, but there's also the remaining quarter that come from all sorts of backgrounds. So if any of those reasons describes you, then you should probably consider going to business school.

Halle Rubera (28:32):

Mm-hmm (affirmative). You've graced so many webinars where you discuss your professional journey, and we've also discussed that it's important to you to share information about opportunities with fellow Africans. Why is this kind of mentorship important to you? And you must also receive lots of requests to connect and answer career related questions from budding professionals. So what's the most effective way to connect with professionals you don't know?

Eugene Awori (28:59):

If I look at my background, I'm only where I am today because I've been held by so many people. I think some people love to describe themselves as self-made. I don't believe something like that exists. I believe it takes a lot of people along the way to help you achieve your goals. That has certainly been the case for me. Someone has paid for my education since I was in fourth grade, since I was I think nine years old. Someone else has paid for my education, and I've gotten so much help from people. So I think for me, I've seen how important that is. Because at times, people just need someone to tell them that they can do it. [inaudible 00:29:39] where we come from, many children don't have that kind of access.

Eugene Awori (29:42):

They're not born in the kind of families where they have people who've accomplished those goals. And so it looks like... To them, it's the obvious thing to do. So many of them are born in families where nobody has done what they want to do. I think finding that person who tells you, "Eugene, you can do it," has been very... And so, I try to take out time to do that. You're absolutely right. I get so many messages daily on email, on LinkedIn, from people who want to apply to Stanford or want to work in emerging markets, and it can be very overwhelming. At times, I take a long time to reply, and I feel very bad for the people who reach out. What I'm trying to do now to make it more easy is to actually...

Eugene Awori (30:28):

Because a lot of the information that people will seek is already available. They just don't know where to find it. So I'm working on Finance_501, a website currently together with some friends, that will hopefully answer a lot of the questions that people typically have initially, whether it's applying to business school, picking a career, switching jobs, or acing interviews. We'll try and put the information online and over time, try and grow that to different fields as well. So I think having that resource and pointing people to that resource would be helpful. I think on a personal level, what I'm doing now, I'm trying to do monthly calls with mostly prospective applicants who want to apply to Stanford or Knight-Hennessy scholarship, together with other fellow students at Stanford and scholars.

Eugene Awori (31:14):

We're just trying to do a monthly call where it's just a Q and A, and have 20, 30 people on the call asking questions, as opposed to trying to speak to one-on-one with everyone, which is just not realistic. You wouldn't have time to study or to look for a job or start a company and the other things you have to do in school. So we're trying to do a monthly call with students, and depending on a case at times, get on one-on-one calls with people. At times, how do I put it, it's a warm call and someone has [inaudible 00:31:52] you'll try and make time for that. And at times also, it's a cold email from someone but who is pretty much, I'd say, closer to the process. At times, someone reaches out and says, they've already taken the [inaudible 00:32:07] and they've already filled in their application and they just need someone to review their essays. Right?

Halle Rubera (32:13):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Eugene Awori (32:14):

So maybe that's something I'm probably more inclined to... Someone I'm more inclined to speak to as opposed to someone who reaches out and says, "Hey, I've just started working, and I might consider applying to business school in three years time. What advice do you have?" Then probably that someone that I can just reply. I'll write a message on LinkedIn or email, and I'll reply to them as opposed to getting on a call. But definitely, it's a problem many people are facing and everyone is asking, how do we do these at scale, because you're only one person? You can't speak to 10 people a day. Hopefully, when we launch Finance_501's blog, by end of the year, hopefully, at least for finance student, that should answer a lot of questions, and then hopefully partner with students in other fields to do the same for engineering and arts and everything else.

Halle Rubera (33:11):

Yeah. I really am... I'm impressed at how you're paying it forward and ensuring that other people who might not have these chances growing up or might not know about them are able to figure out how to go about the process. Thanks for doing that. I've actually been on one of the calls, and it was really helpful. So whoever's listening and is interested in signing up, you definitely should. Here, you've mentioned a lot about your upcoming blog, Finance_501, but you already have a Twitter handle that's also under the same name, Finance_501. I encourage everyone to follow that page, because I've seen... I follow it myself, and there's lots of opportunities that are posted there. So actually, Eugene, this is a question. So once you see an opportunity is posted, do you then reach out to the company and try and find the recruiter? What's next steps for you once you identify a job or an opportunity that you're interested in? Do they DM the Finance_501 page?

Eugene Awori (34:11):

Well, we definitely get a lot of DMs, but that at times is not the way to go. So what we are seeing now is a lot of companies are coming to us and telling us, "Hey, we were looking for an accountant or we're looking for an associate. Could you send us some resumes?" And in that case, we'd reach out to people and ask for resumes asking for a process to make that easier. [inaudible 00:34:32] because I think [inaudible 00:34:34] this summer, we've placed a lot of people at different companies around Africa from that page. But typically, we just share jobs that we've seen.

Eugene Awori (34:44):

I'd say 90% of the positions we post, I just started, we picked up on company's websites. And so many times we'd post a link, and I think someone just needs to follow the link and apply. But again, I go back to what I said earlier, applying to a company where you've never spoken to someone, you don't know anything about the company, is probably not the right thing to do. So I think what we hope is that as we post these opportunities, that the people who follow Finance_501 will start broadening their idea of what they can do with their degree, with their education. So I think that's the first goal, for people to see that, Oh, what is this [DALBAG 00:35:24]? I've never had about this company? What do they do?

Eugene Awori (35:27):

And go and look into them, reach out to some people on LinkedIn who work there and ask questions, get to know more about the company. So that the next time we post a job from that company, you are better positioned to apply. So I think that's what we hope to achieve, so that you're not just seeing a job for the first time and clicking a link and applying, but you're doing very targeted outreach and very targeted applications, so that the quality of the applications you put in is... I've had people reach out to me and say, they have applied 50 times for the World Bank and they've never called me for an interview. And I'm like, wow. There's no way you're not.

Eugene Awori (36:10):

You are a good fit for 50 different vacancies. So you're probably wasting your time applying to roles that are not suited for you. So you probably need to spend time speaking to some people in the company to better understand, Hey, what do you look for in hiring? What are some of the departments where my skills would fit, and focus on talking to people in those companies. At times, they don't have what they're looking for and that's fine. You can say, okay, I now know that this is what this company is looking for. I'll spend the next two years building that skillset before I apply. That saves you a lot of time. For instance, I post some roles which are, say, post MBA positions for lets say in a private equity fund.

Eugene Awori (36:53):

They're looking for someone with an MBA degree from a top business school. It's probably a waste of time at times applying to such a role if you don't have that. That energy is better spent reaching out to someone, an investment manager and ask them, "Hey, I saw this vacancy that you guys posted. It requires an MBA." And having that discussion with them. And then you might decide, you know what, I'm going to spend the next one year applying to business school. The next year, doing my MBA, and then I'll be ready for a position like this. So I think that's the background work that we hope to encourage people to do.

Eugene Awori (37:29):

Because even now, when we post positions and say, "We are looking for a finance manager who has five years experience in a Big Four firm and is a certified accountant," I actually would get applications from students who are just finishing college with no experience and they don't have a CPA. It means people are wasting a lot of time and energy applying for positions that they don't have a shot at getting. I know that the advice in the civilian, in our market with high unemployment rate is that just throw your darts in the dark, and-

Halle Rubera (38:08):

Yeah, shoot your shot.

Eugene Awori (38:11):

... one day you'll get lucky. I don't advocate for that strategy, because it's very time-consuming. What that means is that when the role that you're actually competent for shows up, you don't even have the energy to put in a good application. You don't even have a resume that's properly tailored for that role. So I definitely am [inaudible 00:38:29]. Shoot your shot, but that shot should... Your first shot should not be a job application. Your first shot should be reaching out to someone at that company and finding out what exactly they're looking for before you apply.

Halle Rubera (38:39):

Well, all great points. Thank you so much for sharing that. Thank you for spending this one hour with me discussing career, life, professional development. And so, I have just one final question for you. When you look back to the decisions you've made in the past about your career development, professional development, what's one thing you think you've done really well and one thing you wish you had done better?

Eugene Awori (39:04):

Wow, that's a hard one to close. One thing I think I've done well, I probably mentioned this before, is I think I've picked my bosses well. I've worked for people who were really good at what they do. They're extremely good at what they do. And so, I ended up learning a ton from them, but they were also heavily invested in my success. So they wanted me to succeed. At no point did I feel like I'm working for a manager who's trying to sabotage me. I think that's very important for every professional. At times, we go for the money or the brand or for the other thing. But always ask yourself, who are you going to work for, and would you be able to build a good...

Eugene Awori (39:47):

Because a lot of what happens in the workplace is really how you relate with your boss, and understanding how they work and how they expect you to work. And then once you figure that out, then you build a good working relationship and you can succeed. So I think I've picked my bosses well. What I think I would have done better, I've worked in finance for five years as an investor. I think I've had opportunities before to go to subsidiaries of these investment companies and work in an operations role. I previously looked down on those opportunities. Now, when I look at my friends who took those opportunities, I think they're much better investors, because they understand the operation side of the business.

Eugene Awori (40:31):

So I wish I'd taken those one, two years secondments to go to or take up operating roles in companies and understand these companies from the inside as opposed to only looking at a company as an investor. So I think for someone who wants to have a career in finance, that's definitely something they should consider, even if it's an internship, but getting some exposure on the operation side. I'm actually doing a second internship on the operational side for a Nigerian startup, and it's extremely challenging for me, especially because I've only been on the investor side all my career.

Halle Rubera (41:09):

Thank you so much for sharing your learnings. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences, your advice. This was so helpful even for me, who does this episode so many times. I really learned a lot, and I appreciate your time. Thank you so much, Eugene.

Eugene Awori (41:25):

Well, thank you so much for having me, Halle, and all the best with what you're doing on this series.