#TheHustle: Zaina Otieno - Investment Associate, East Africa @Camco Clean Energy

Zaina started out her career in Investment Banking in New York City, moved to London and eventually decided to move back to her hometown, Nairobi, where she sees so much opportunity for growth and investment. In this episode, she is candid about the ups, downs, doubts and successes in her professional journey and shares great reflections on authenticity and self-belief.

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Transcript

Halle Rubera (00:03):

Hi, and welcome to TheHustle. A professional development podcast series in conjunction with the MasterCard Foundation Scholars Program. I'm your host Halle Rubera, an alum of the MasterCard Foundation Scholars Program at Wellesley College. And with this series, I will share the stories of accomplished African professionals from different backgrounds, currently working in investment banking, management consulting, big tech, and more.

Halle Rubera (00:27):

Each episode discusses the wide area of career opportunities and provides listeners with advice about working at top firms such as Goldman Sachs, Facebook, and Novartis. The title of this podcast, TheHustle, is an ode to my hometown of Nairobi, Kenya, which I love and where the spirit of the hustle, hard work, and resilience shines bright.

Halle Rubera (00:51):

Today, I have the pleasure of hosting Zaina Otieno. An incoming investment associate with Camco Clean Energy East Africa. She earned a BS/MBA in accounting and economics at Meredith College. Her past experience has been in investment banking as an analyst and associate at Deutsche Bank in New York city and London. And she also attended a couple of career prep programs at Goldman Sachs and the Forte Foundation which we shall discuss later in this episode. Zaina, welcome to the episode. And just tell us a little bit about your professional journey up until now as an incoming investment associate for a renewable energy company.

Zaina Otieno (01:32):

Thanks a lot, Halle, for hosting me. It's always very exciting for me to share my journey which has been very interesting, I would say. I will currently be working as an investment associate for Camco Clean Energy. And basically, am covering the whole of East Africa responsible for originating, financing, and developing deals in the renewable sector. So the company is mainly focused on off-grid energy. So speaking of solar... and when you think of Kenya, for example, and most developing countries, where electricity from the grid is quite expensive and it's usually impossible to then reach the rural areas. And this company actually is very much focused on tapping on to the rural areas and making sure that everyone has access to energy. So, it's an impact investor, which is something that I was really passionate about. And as Halle had mentioned, my past experience was in investment banking which was a very rigorous experience.

Zaina Otieno (02:35):

I did start out at Meredith College through Zawadi Africa, which is a really amazing organization that sponsors women from African countries to go study in the US, Canada, and the UK. And fast forward after Meredith College, I started out my career on Wall Street, New York, covering Financial Institutions Group. Of course, this was very different from something I had expected, but at the same time very, very rigorous and so much learning from this experience.

Zaina Otieno (03:09):

I did spend a year and a half in New York covering Financial Institutions Group. And then I moved over to London where I was covering infrastructure and utilities. And this is where the interest in renewable energy, power utilities, infrastructure came in. And fast forward to that, I've just been very keen to then transfer this knowledge into an area that I'm passionate about, and also keeping in mind moving back to Kenya, which is something that I've always wanted to do. So yeah, I hope that gives you a quick snippet of my professional journey.

Halle Rubera (03:43):

Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. I mean, even with your work in renewable energy sounds very disruptive. I think when I think about say someone who works in renewable energy or just kind of examples that you've mentioned, wind, water, solar, my first thought is to think an engineer and yet your experience is in finance. I think it would be interesting to have a conversation about the different moving parts that come together for different projects to work. Right. Because obviously, they have to be the engineers that build the product or that build the system, but you're working on the finance side. Why was it so important to you to go into, you mentioned that you had the interest while working in New York and working as an investment banker, but what really was the [inaudible 00:04:31] for you to go to renewable energy? What opportunities do you see in this space? Do you have some insider information to share? What should we know about this space?

Zaina Otieno (04:43):

Absolutely. And I'm just going to actually start from the point where I got interested in energy. And I actually landed into energy and infrastructure, I would say, by accident, maybe. So the way banking works... So, once you get an offer... And I remember doing my first internship at Citi, and you have a day where you meet the different teams, it's called a placement day, where you meet the various teams. And based on the teams that likes you, you then end up joining the team. So these teams are usually like industrials, consumer, technology, power and utilities, financial institutions, and all these different industries that you could work with.

Zaina Otieno (05:28):

Funny enough, I ended up with a power and utilities group. I had not chosen them. I actually was very keen to go up for the consumer team at Citi, because consumer for me was quite relatable. Like Coca Cola, that's a consumer company. If someone asked you to value that you could very much think of how to start. But ending up with the power and utilities group was a challenge at first, because I didn't even know the whole, kilowatt, megawatts. And there are just all these different things that you have to learn, having a finance background. And I think something that's very important to note is that everything is on-the-job learning. So well that was just an internship and I got this whole exposure into power utilities. And I learned from the scratch. I think you don't really have to have an engineering background to be able to do this kind of work.

Zaina Otieno (06:22):

As you mentioned, Halle, so fast forward in London, the last few years I've been spending on infrastructure and utilities. So with infrastructure, airports, roads, ferries. And in terms of utilities, energy companies so networks, transmission companies, and even renewables well like the generators. And I think something that is very important, as I'd mentioned, is learning on the job. And you have to realize that even power companies they need someone behind them to finance them and when power companies want to do consolidations they’re the ones that would do the consolidations for them. Where the knowledge comes in, where you have to understand what is happening is that, if you're trying to value a power company, for example, you actually have to understand what metrics going to it. So while we won't have the deep knowledge, what engineers would do, we have to have a very clear picture of how the power companies generate their revenues. And by this, you have to understand how much capacity their plants have, and how much generation these respective plants generate. And from there, you can then project your model.

Zaina Otieno (07:37):

You also have to understand regulation and policy to see what might change in the future. Because when you think of power and utilities and not to get too technical, this is a very regulated industry. And normally, when you build a model for this, you could build a 70-year model for a power or utility company. And it's just very important to understanding regulation and the moving parts of how electricity is generated. And basically, use these to then project a certain number of revenue.

Zaina Otieno (08:08):

But that being said, I think with renewable companies, for example... Also very interesting, I have worked a lot with developers. I have worked on a couple of deals where someone was trying to acquire a developer company. And it's just very important to understand the large-scale. The macro picture in terms of renewables being very disruptive and they are going to change how energy is being produced in the world. So while projecting these companies, you have to have that in mind, and you have to have a good understanding of how then similar companies would work. And basically, project how many power plants they will be setting up in the future. So it's very technical, but not... we don't get into the nitty-gritty of what engineers do. But when it comes to due diligence, you actually have to have a chat with some of the engineers and understand if anything doesn't work or if anything seems out of place, we have to speak with them to understand that.

Zaina Otieno (09:15):

I have to say that, yes, got there by accident, but developed so much interest in that. And it's really all on-the-job learning. And every time when a new situation is presented to you basically just have to have the skill of being a quick learner and that way you can actually work in any industry, irrespective of what your background was.

Halle Rubera (09:38):

Zaina, that's a great story to tell, actually. Just from the point of view, not knowing what you wanted to do, I mean, you wanting to join the consumer group and then ending up with this renewable group, talking about power and all that.

Zaina Otieno (09:56):

Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Halle Rubera (09:57):

I think the point here is, I'm really glad that you mentioned the point about learning on-the-job and giving yourself a chance. I really have to commend you for that. Just allowing yourself to learn and be open to a new challenge, even though you had no idea what you were getting yourself into, the utilities group. But allowing yourself that chance to grow and learn. And look at you now, diving deep into everything that you need to know and things that you do and sounding so excited about it. I think that's a great story for our listeners.

Halle Rubera (10:27):

It sounds investment banking has given you a breadth of knowledge and experience and that's something that's really attributed to roles in banking. Yet on the other hand, banking hours are also known to be super tough, long, very gruelling. So why did you still choose to pursue investment banking even after the internship and knowing this information about the industry, why did you still think that this was a good opportunity for you to pursue? And didn't even stop at the analyst level, went up until the associate level, which for our listeners, that's almost four years in banking, so why did you choose to stay?

Zaina Otieno (11:18):

Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny because yes, it's very gruesome. And after my internship at Citi and doing very long hours, I think I'd made up my mind that I wouldn't want to do banking again. And then I was out there in college trying to recruit for different roles, but I wasn't getting any role. I wasn't getting any role and funny enough-

Halle Rubera (11:43):

Sounds familiar to a lot of us.

Zaina Otieno (11:50):

Honestly?

Halle Rubera (11:50):

Yes.

Zaina Otieno (11:50):

It was two months to graduation, I knew the H-1B going to... I would need a company that would sponsor my H-1B and I just applied for a banking role. I applied at Deutsche Bank and they're calling it corporate finance. I think that's a very European way of calling it. I think in the US people refer to it as investment banking a lot. So I just thought that this was a middle office role and I applied. And I remember going in for the interview and the managing director was very impressed and he gave me an offer on the spot. And he said, “Look, welcome. We are very happy to have you in the team.” It's not until I actually go to the interview that I realized I was actually interviewing for investment banking, yet again. So I just felt maybe this was some fate thing that I was supposed to actually work as a banker.

Zaina Otieno (12:39):

I have to say, well, it was very gruesome and that is part of why I chose to left, just to be able to have more work-life balance. The amount of learning that you get there, it's incomparable to what you would do at other jobs. There's this joke about, if my friend and I are working and we’ve been working for a year, then I can almost count myself to have two years of work experience when they count one. Because I would be doing 80 hours a week, especially during the very busy weeks and busy months.

Zaina Otieno (13:16):

So I think the positives in investment banking is that you actually go into a space that you've never been before. I'm giving my example of working in power and utilities, and you dive into that and you learn. It just really expands your breadth, and it helps your mind to think a lot faster. You're almost learning to think on your feet while doing so much work altogether. But also it really exposes you to meeting different people at different levels. So even as a very junior person, I would be attending meetings where it would be CEOs, CFOs in the meeting. And I think this just really helps you put things into perspective and realize that you could also do something great. You could also become a CEO or CFO. It really just takes away from the big names and the big, big numbers. So, for example, if you did a deal that was 5 billion, all of a sudden 5 million seems a feasible number. If you speak to other people 5 billion is just something that is incomprehensible.

Zaina Otieno (14:21):

I think, all in all, the exposure to meeting senior management at different companies and seeing how they were carrying themselves and how they were building up their businesses and working with big numbers just really helped me to I think gain more confidence in myself. And just gave me a larger breadth in terms of my experience. It's not just at the desk working but also in the outside world.

Halle Rubera (14:49):

Zaina, I want to talk a little bit about how you prepare yourself even for recruiting and getting into an industry like investment banking. So for you prior to your recruitment, you had actually attended some career prep programs with Goldman Sachs and the Forte Foundation. Can you tell us a little bit about that experience and what the benefits was of taking part in those programs?

Zaina Otieno (15:13):

Yes. So with the Forte Foundation and Goldman Sachs Inspiring Women program these two were just very pivotal for me to get into the whole banking scene altogether. I think being from a non-target school it was very obvious that banks did not come to my college to hire. I think if you go to a target school, it's a lot easier to break in, where banks would usually send recruiters or even junior bankers to come and speak to the students and recruit. I'm coming from a non-target, it was up to me to then find my way into the bank's faces, basically. So with the Goldman Sachs Inspiring Women program, this was a program that was focused on women. And there are so many of these programs. Every year, different banks host them mainly to then hire and bring more diversity to the bank, bring more women to the bank.

Zaina Otieno (16:11):

The Goldman Sachs was actually the eye-opener. And it was just a conference where there are different women speaking to us on leadership. And we had so many activities. I remember we had a trading simulation and from there they would just watch how we were reacting. And then I remember that conference turned to an interview for me. So, well, I actually flopped the interview big time, unfortunately. But that for me was just my first experience, just stepping into Wall Street and learning what to expect. So I think it's just...

Zaina Otieno (16:51):

Forte Foundation was another example. So when I did Forte, and this was actually how I then came to get interviewed for a role at Citi. So the Forte Foundation was being hosted by Citi. And again, it was just senior women speaking into their roles, and encouraging us and trying to teach us what to expect. Forte is also quite big in helping people with their MBA applications. So I’d say if you're not from a target school, you should definitely target these career prep programs and minority leadership programs to be able to set your foot on the door.

Halle Rubera (17:29):

Yeah. I like that you're honest about that, because I think there's a false belief that a lot of these opportunities are just because of merit. You achieve them only on a meritocratic basis, which it's not true. I don't know how else to say it. It's not true. I mean, a lot of the people who get into those... Zaina, you're really impressive. You're impressive. You had a really high GPA graduating. Some-

Zaina Otieno (17:59):

Thank you.

Halle Rubera (18:00):

... [inaudible 00:18:00]. Really impressive. And yet you had to still be at a target school for you to get your foot in the door. So I think it's also important for students who are listening to know like, “Yeah,” unfortunately, this is how things work with recruiting is that there are schools that they prefer to recruit from and there are schools they will not give the same value. But you can't be tied down by that, right? It also has to be come from within you, to push and try as hard as you can to get those opportunities that you want. And Zaina, you're a great example of that.

Halle Rubera (18:37):

It's like you understood your position, you knew you were smart, you knew you were capable, unfortunately, that might not have been enough for some employers. And yet you still strive to put your best foot forward, whatever opportunities you could take advantage of. And I think that's just a great lesson for life, regardless of whatever privileges or non privileges you have. It's just always doing your best, always putting your best foot forward, always going for what you want. And I'm really glad that you shared that on the podcast. Yeah. So-

Zaina Otieno (19:09):

Absolutely. And Halle, just... Sorry. On the same point-

Halle Rubera (19:11):

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

Zaina Otieno (19:14):

... I think it's very important as international students to actually recognize that not having a US citizenship sets you back a foot. Basically, when you apply for a job and you have other Americans apply for the job, if you guys are equally qualified the company is more geared to hire the American person, because they won't have to then sponsor their visa. So basically, I think you have to work a lot harder. You have to attend this prep courses. You have to have a great GPA, and really you have to have the CV where when you step into the room, you actually really stand out compared to the other people. It then gives you a leverage. And it gives the company a reason to want to hire and sponsor you which is something that costs them money. So, I think understanding that early on is very important.

Halle Rubera (20:10):

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

Zaina Otieno (20:10):

All right.

Halle Rubera (20:10):

So for you Zaina, you mentioned a little bit earlier on the podcast, that the reason you left banking was because you were looking for a better work-life balance. So I'm curious to know how you make your career related decisions, because typically we know that when you’re in investment banking, almost natural path is private equity. There's almost like a pipeline. So for you, how do you make decisions about your career? Do you check what the company is doing? Do you look for the skill set you’ll learn? Do you think about the nature of the work that you'll be doing? What matters most to you, and what should be the priorities to think about when deciding on career options?

Zaina Otieno (20:51):

Yes, and that's a very intimate question I would say. And it's something that for me has changed with time. So when I was in college, I was very keen on getting a big name, a big company, a job that would pay well, and that is still part of the equation. I think it's very important to get a job that then affords you a good lifestyle. But then at the moment for me, the highest priority was to have a company with a big name. One that could actually open other exit doors for me. And so that was also part of why I chose to do investment banking just because it has so many exit opportunities. And as you rightly mentioned, the natural part would have been private equity. And I've had lots of infrastructure firms approach me and lots of different private equity firms approach me.

Zaina Otieno (21:44):

But I think at this point in my life, I actually just had to sit back and dig very deep for that reason. And I realized that I didn't care for a big name. I actually cared more for the culture, and I cared a lot more for a work-life balance. So on my list, I wanted a job that gave me a good work-life balance, a job that had a great culture and where people are nice to each other. People are human, not that other people are not human. But I think if you work in banking, you realize that the whole humane point is not always feasible in all situations. Sometimes people act and treat you’re a machine. So I was very keen to work with a team that was very humane, and a team that really valued people.

Zaina Otieno (22:43):

The third point was to actually have a job that could actually still pay well, because I think from banking, it's really hard to take a pay cut. And I think bankers are very well compensated such that when you're looking to move outside of the industry, sometimes you have to take a whole 50% pay cut. And I think if you've already put up some certain form of lifestyle, it's really hard to take that hit. But this was something I had to sit down and evaluate and I decided to take a bit of a heat on that, as well. So for me, those three things were very important.

Zaina Otieno (23:17):

Then number four was to find a company in a place where I could actually bring my authentic self to work. And I think going on to number four, it really resonated with me that it actually had to be a company that was focusing on things I love, maybe based in a place that I wanted to be, which was in Kenya. Focusing on things that I love doing which was working on projects, or working with people that are making impacts on other people's lives. So that list is always changing, and who knows it might change five years from now. But I think the ambitious college girl is not the same girl you have now, very ambitious, but very much so [inaudible 00:23:58] on the more important things in life.

Halle Rubera (24:01):

I asked this question because I think it's okay to have different priorities based or depending on what stage of your life you're in. It's okay to have to want different things in life. It's okay to change. I think that's something I really want to highlight on this podcast. So I appreciate you sharing that with us. And-

Zaina Otieno (24:20):

Absolutely.

Halle Rubera (24:21):

... we connected because I was also asking myself those questions. Asking myself, “I just graduated, what are the next steps for me?” What kinds of things should I consider right now and on in my career? And Zaina, you were so open to chat with me. I remember it was supposed to be a 15-minute chat ended up being like an hour, an hour and a half, chatting like people who'd known each other since forever. And on this podcast series, I've talked a lot about finding mentors and networking with people so you can get your foot in the door at a lot of these companies. But why is it equally important to help out where you can? Why do you help out when people reach out to you?

Zaina Otieno (25:05):

I think it's very important to bring down the escalator for other people to climb up as well. Because when I look back at my career, I remember starting out. And I think as a minority and as a black female, when you go for these roles that are very much male-dominated, and mostly white male-dominated, sometimes it's really hard to get someone that you relate to. So, I still remember one of my biggest worries, which might sound a very silly thing but it's not. When starting out work as an intern and even starting out full-time, one of my biggest question was, how should I wear my hair to work? And because this was Wall Street what I had seen on the pictures or on the movies, or blonde ladies with straight hair. And I didn't even know where to start and how to wear my hair. And if I had not spoken to another female who maybe was also a black female and a banker, it would have been really hard to understand that, how should I dress when I go to work?

Zaina Otieno (26:12):

So I remember I actually spoke to [inaudible 00:26:15] Njeri, who was then just leaving banking. She's now actually an associate partner at McKinsey, very amazing woman. And she told me, “Look, wear your hair the way you would. Wear your braids, but bring your authentic self to work.” And that was just very important to me because she'd gone through the same thing. And she'd actually understood what it meant to bring your authentic self to work. And basically, she'd been in my shoes, and she'd felt different at some point where she was walking into a group of people where no one look like herself and she wanted to fit in but still be herself. And I think it's just very important to chat with other people that are coming in, because I think people make some mistakes that maybe we made. And sometimes it's mainly because they don't have anyone to relate to or speak to. So it's just really, always important for me to then speak to other people that are coming in.

Zaina Otieno (27:10):

I think also the whole imposter syndrome I think most students... international students, for example, would have this imposter syndrome of, “Will I be good enough despite having a perfect score, having the great GPA.” Despite being very qualified for the role, you still find people who feel not very confident about how they are going to perform in their roles. So I think it's just always important to have someone to hold your hand and pull you through. And I've had mentors that were just very, very pivotal for my career. People that told me, “You're good enough. You're going to make it.” And even now moving into Kenya, I'm speaking to some ladies and some men as well. Some people in the energy industry who are actually going to be very helpful in the transition and helping me learn the ropes of working in Kenya and in the energy sector in Kenya as well. So it's just very important to do that.

Halle Rubera (28:09):

I think it's important when we look at someone like you who... Your resume is so impressive and yet you say, “Look, Halle, I needed help. I needed some support and I needed a support system, and that was helpful.” And I know one time when we chatted, you also mentioned that you also got better treatment or you get good treatment at your company because you knew someone else who had worked there, who'd also done a good job. Do you want to recount that story with us?

Zaina Otieno (28:39):

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think this is just going back to starting out on-the-job. And in banking, people would normally choose who to work with based on whether they went to the same school... I think before you prove yourself all the analysts are basically always trying to find someone to work with. And most of the time it would be that people are working with. People they went to school with, people from the same fraternity teams back in school, or just people who had known each other, maybe cousins. So for me having no one that had gone to Meredith, I still remember at one point there was this new MD that was hired into our team, in the Financial Institutions Group in New York. And we had a lunch session with him.

Zaina Otieno (29:29):

He was a new MD and I remember him asking, “Oh, hey, what's your name? Where are you from?” And I was like, “Yeah, my name is Zaina. I'm from Kenya." And he just very randomly asked, “Do you know a girl called Njeri?” And I was like, “Oh my gosh, Njeri is my mentor. She's a very good friend.” So this was Njeri Gathinji, the girl I had actually referred to, whom I'd spoken to about going to work and bringing my full authentic self. So basically, the MD was like, “Oh, if you know Njeri, I actually worked with her at UBS. She was an amazing, intelligent, smart woman. When she left banking, she said she didn't want to come back again, but it was such a big loss to the team when she left.”

Zaina Otieno (30:09):

I think just from there having dropped Njeri’s name this MD then pulled me on to work with him. And I was doing lots of [inaudible 00:30:18] with him and he was checking on me. Checking to see if I was okay. So it's just really important to know people, I think. You never know where these names are going to be relevant. So I have that one to count for, for sure.

Halle Rubera (30:32):

100% agree. Just on the same theme of helping out, paying it forward, sharing what you've learned, you currently run a personal finance Instagram page under the handle ZiziHaven, so can you tell us a little bit about why you started it and what information you'll be sharing on that page?

Zaina Otieno (30:52):

Absolutely. And it was a very, should I say, a hilarious reason to starting it. So basically despite being a banker and making comparatively good money, I think one day I woke up and I was broke, and basically I was at an airport. I was trying to make a purchase and my card had run out of money. And so it was such an eye-opening moment for me. Because I think working in banking and there being almost an indefinite disposable amount of income, at least that's how it felt for me. I just felt I was being paid very well. And so spending money, and not that I was actually just living too lavishly, but I basically just didn't have a budget. I was assisting back home... The whole topic of black tax is something that's very dear to me, something that I'm very keen to explore. So basically, I was assisting back home. I was basically spending my money without having a clear picture where the money was going and having a good budget.

Zaina Otieno (32:05):

This topic I think is very much relatable to many of us who maybe from a very humble background, having responsibilities when you start out work and not really budgeting for those responsibilities, but then giving from an emotional standpoint. So I created ZiziHaven as a platform to actually educate other people about money. I think despite having a finance and accounting background and economics and having worked in a bank, the concept of personal finance was not very much ingrained to me.

Zaina Otieno (32:41):

I think when reading books, when listening to some podcasts, I think personal finance had always been geared to rich middle class people. Sometimes, most often old white men with money. And when people talk to you about tax itemization as a way to save and examples, basically making big money moves making big donations in order to then save up in tax. Most of these advice are not relatable to us. And I was just very keen to start a platform that speaks to personal finance as it relates to the African person who may be never had much and just started making a lot, and still has a family to take care of back home. And is also trying to be generational wealth. So, yeah, please check it out, it's ZiziHaven. Posting YouTube videos as well. And it's just a very interactive channel where I'm trying to speak to other people who've had similar experiences. And actually demystifying this topic of money which is always considered a taboo.

Halle Rubera (33:51):

I really like that. I mean, we've had this conversation too. I'm also [inaudible 00:33:55] on self-improvement and one of the things that I dedicated myself-

Zaina Otieno (34:00):

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Halle Rubera (34:00):

... to doing this year was learning about personal finance. And it's crazy just how much information is out there, but how little that you know. And I think just listening to you, there's just a common thread of hitting almost an obstacle and then figuring things out. Always trying-

Zaina Otieno (34:20):

Yeah.

Halle Rubera (34:20):

... to figure things out, always trying to solve problems. And I think that's just a great skill, regardless of, if you learned it in banking and now are using it in life or whatever. I mean, it's just amazing how that natural... There's just a fluidity in the way you live your life and how you make your decisions and all that. And I think that's a great segue to talking about how you dealt with some of the rejections that you've had in life. Because you mentioned earlier that you had the opportunity to interview for a role at Goldman Sachs, but you flopped, in your words, you flopped terribly.

Zaina Otieno (34:56):

Yeah.

Halle Rubera (34:56):

And we've also had a conversation about how you've just not always been fortunate to get the opportunities that you wanted. So what's the best way to just get up quick, deal with the rejection and get up, and keep it moving.

Zaina Otieno (35:13):

I think with the rejections, the biggest thing is to never take it personally. So when I got the opportunity to interview at Goldman, I was a sophomore, I had never interviewed with a bank before. It was the first experience interviewing. And I think not to beat yourself too hard, of course I was very disappointed. And I was thinking, “Oh, I had a 4.0, I thought my resume was great. Everything was checking, but I didn't get the job.” And I think, for me sitting back, it was very important for me to analyze what mistakes I had made at that interview. And so, I actually reached out to some ladies who were working in similar roles, and I will ask them, “Why do you think I didn’t get this role? And I remember one of them was very candid enough to ask me what my answers were to different questions.

Zaina Otieno (36:07):

And I remember this big mistake that I had made throughout the interview was when the interviewer had asked about my background and where I was from. I think, I had then changed the interview to become a chat about Kenya and what my struggles were growing up. And of course, the interviewer was very engaged and we actually went over the allotted time. And I remember we’re just talking about Kenya and how I then got the scholarship and my struggles growing up. And I thought that was inspiring. And I thought maybe that’s why they would give me the job. But honestly, no one cares about your struggles. People actually care about what you're bringing to the bank and what skills you have. What kind of person you are. No one wants to know about your growing up. I mean, if they do, well and great, but that should not be and should never be the focus of the interview. So I think going on to the next interview, I was just on top of my game. I knew where stock was trading. I knew the latest M&A deals. I had done my research. And I think that banking is just one of those things where they're books where you learn how to do a DCF, how to answer certain questions.

Zaina Otieno (37:25):

I remember going for the next interviews and I ended up getting three offers. And I was just trying to decide what role to take, what not to take. But, I think if I would not have looked critically as to why I didn't get the previous job, I probably would have made the same mistakes going forward. So I think rejection should just be a way for you to then sit down and evaluate, because most of the times the companies don't tell you why you didn't get the role. You always get these vague emails, “There were so many competitive candidates. Sorry, we could not take you.” And I mean, well, that might be true. I just think that there's always something that you may have done or said that made you flop it. But sometimes, maybe just wasn't the role for you. But I think it's just very important to critically look at what mistakes you may have made and not repeat them in the future.

Halle Rubera (38:15):

100% agree.

Zaina Otieno (38:16):

So that's the best thing. Yeah. Learning from failures, yep.

Halle Rubera (38:19):

Yeah, yeah. I like everything that you said about not taking it personally, and that also allows you to be honest. Because if you've stuck something about a rejection, then you don't learn from it and-

Zaina Otieno (38:32):

Honestly.

Halle Rubera (38:33):

... You're not ready for other opportunities. And I think even, in just the story that you've told, if you think about it in the sense of different interviews prepare you for a role in the future. Almost in the sense that, so you get rejected at Goldman and now you better at interviewing and now you have three offers.

Zaina Otieno (38:55):

Yes.

Halle Rubera (38:56):

I guess what I'm trying to say is just looking at the interview also as prep, because interviewing is also a skill. And so, if you're not so good at the beginning, then the more interviews you do, the better you get. And the more likely you are of getting offers. So it's just not getting discouraged at the first try and feeling, “Oh my God, you suck.” Maybe [crosstalk 00:39:20] you do. And that's okay. Because you get better. The good thing about practice is... if you do good practice, you do get better. So...

Zaina Otieno (39:30):

Yeah.

Halle Rubera (39:30):

Yeah. Oh, this is such an interesting, exciting conversation, but we're almost at the end. And you had mentioned earlier on that you're moving back to work in Nairobi, at some point you'll be back in Nairobi, because you wanted that to be your end goal. That you wanted to pick up the skills and you wanted to apply them back home in renewable energy. So what motivated you to make this move back home? Because you spent time in New York City, you spent time in London, these are the financial power houses on the globe. So why make the move to Nairobi? Nairobi is great, but why make the move?

Zaina Otieno (40:12):

I think first because it's home and I don't have a family either in London or New York. And I've just always felt this form of loneliness, I'm living here... Well, it's a very bustling city and I've come to love London, it's become a home to me, but it still doesn't. There's always something missing, I think. And I think also just working through and it's been four years already in banking, the job started getting a bit repetitive. Not to say that every day is repetitive, but I just knew what was going to be the next deal. Once the deal closes, that's great. It's great for the company. But I was just getting a bit bored by the fact that I wasn't doing what I was really passionate about. And that's actually something that's related to the reason why I didn't go to a traditional private equity company. I was just very keen to work on projects that have direct impacts on people's lives. And I just knew I wouldn't get that in banking. And so for me, I really was very keen to then move on to a company that does that.

Zaina Otieno (41:22):

I think another thing that was goes without saying is that I think Nairobi probably needs me more as opposed to how much London needs me. I think here I'm just another investment associate. But if I'm able to then come home and transfer those skills that is something I'd be very happy to do. And also, not to forget to mention that normally when you work as an investment banker here, even as an associate, there are so many layers above you. So I would still sometimes be working with a VP, and working with a director, or sometimes work with a managing director, but there's a lot of structure in what you do. And when it comes to meeting clients, sometimes you're limited as to how much you can present and how much of your ideas you can pitch.

Zaina Otieno (42:14):

I'm very keen to have more autonomy, which I think I could only get in this role that I'm currently going for. I think in the similar role in Kenya, you'd be interacting with clients, I would be interacting with clients, originating deals, doing the financing for those deals. And I just think that's the autonomy that I want, and I would also have a bit more impact. And I would be able to push myself even more, as opposed to having a very structured workplace that I had in my previous job.

Halle Rubera (42:50):

I love that. Just how you broke it down. It makes so much sense. Why you'd want to move back in terms of just even your professional development it sounds [inaudible 00:43:04]. Thank you for sharing. So finally, Zaina, I've been asking this question to each one of my guests that I've had. So what's one thing you think you've done well, when you look back on your professional development decisions, and one thing you wish you had done better?

Zaina Otieno (43:21):

Oh, okay. So one thing I think I did well, I just never let myself be defined by my current situation or background or anything like that. I think when it was time to get a job, I looked and I sought for a job that I thought was very competitive. I never thought I would not make it in that job. I sat down, I asked for resources and I actually went for what I wanted. And that is speaking to first starting out in New York, covering Financial Institutions Group, an industry I had no idea about. And fast forward also coming to London and starting out in infrastructure and utilities an industry also I didn't have much knowledge on. So I just never limited myself as to what I could do and what I couldn't do.

Zaina Otieno (44:19):

I've had a very intensive and what I would call a successful four years in banking. It was certainly a big loss for the team and they [inaudible 00:44:28] when I was leaving. And I actually put my whole being into work, especially the last three years in London, worked very hard. Have been actually privileged to work on amazing large deals that have been very monumental in the European telecom industry, in the ferry industry.

Zaina Otieno (44:54):

One thing that I think I would have done differently is actually, and this is very probably personal to me, but might be relatable to other people from the same background, I wish I would have done less of just putting my head down and working and done more of networking. And basically speak more what I have done. I think coming from a culture where we are taught to put our heads down and work and that your work will speak for yourself... Well, this is true when you're in college, if you put down your head you will get a great GPA. You will do well. I think when it comes to the workspace it's not enough to just work hard because your work will not only speak to yourself. You have people that will take credit for your work. And that is something that I really battled with working in banking. People being very aggressive.

Zaina Otieno (45:52):

Assertive, as well. I think I could have been a bit more assertive and actually defended my work. And spoken more about my work as opposed to sitting back and just executing, but not really putting myself out there in terms of letting other people know what I've done. And this is something that women are still battling with. You'd think that you do a great job and people would know. But you still have people at work that will act like they did everything that you did. And if you never speak up and if you don't fight for that, basically people will just use you as the executor. So people will bring you work, but when it's time to actually speak of who did XYZ, they would actually mention other people.

Zaina Otieno (46:43):

It's just something I'm very conscious of now and going on to the next role, I definitely don't want this to be an issue. So I'm just trying to build those muscles now, and very strongly and candidly speak about my achievements and not feel like I'm actually bragging and not shrink myself. That's just something that I think is very, very important, especially in America more so and even in Europe. Yeah.

Halle Rubera (47:11):

I 100% agree with you. I mean, I guess I've said 100% I agree with you so many times in this episode, but I really love what you're sharing. And I think that the benefits of having this podcast series has been to give insight into some of these things that you can't necessarily find on a company's website, right? Like the company wouldn't say, “This is how to stand out as an intern, is take credit for your work. Or this is how to stand up as a top analyst, take credit for your work.” But it's definitely, something that you get from mentorship, from people who've gone before you. And not everyone is necessarily lucky in the sense of having parents or siblings or best friends who've worked in the same industry to give them these tips.

Halle Rubera (47:57):

So this podcast series has been... Even just for me, honestly, I've learned so much from the guests that I've had, in the lessons that they've learned and the things they wish they had done better. I think it's just a great opportunity for you to get inside... understand that world without working in it, but also knowing how to use or implement those lessons in other opportunities that you might have, other industries. So this is really helpful. Thank you so much for sharing. We've come to the end of this episode. Zaina, I really appreciate your time. Thank you for spending this past hour with me, chatting about your experiences. And I wish you all the best in your new role.

Zaina Otieno (48:42):

Thank you so much, Halle.