#TheHustle: Sandra Kimokoti - Senior Project Manager @Dalberg Advisors

Sandra shares her experience as a consultant, athlete and the insight she’s gained through charting her own path.

Share your comments on Baobab!

Join the Baobab Platform today.

Transcript

Halle Rubera:

(Singing)

Halle Rubera:

Hi, welcome to The Hustle, a professional development podcast series in conjunction with the MasterCard Foundation Scholars Program. I'm your host, Halle Rubera, an alumni of the MasterCard Foundation Scholars Program at Wellesley college. And with this series, I will share the stories of accomplished African professionals from different backgrounds, currently working in investment banking, management consulting, big tech and more. Each episode discusses the wide area of career opportunities, and provides listeners with advice about working at top firms such as Goldman Sachs, Facebook and Novartis. The title of this podcast, The Hustle, is an oath to my hometown of Nairobi, Kenya, which I love, and where the spirit of the hustle, hard work and resilience shines bright.

Halle Rubera:

(Singing)

Halle Rubera:

Today, I have the pleasure of hosting Sandra Kimokoti. Sandra is currently a senior project manager at Dalberg in Nairobi. She earned her Bachelor's Degree in biology from Brown University. Her past experience has been as a summer associate at Omidyar Network, a research intern at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute, Royce Sport and Society fellow, and more recently, a rugby coach at Nyabomo Secondary School.

Halle Rubera:

Welcome to the podcast Sandra, thank you so much for doing this.

Sandra Kimokoti:

Thanks Halle. It's a pleasure to be here.

Halle Rubera:

So, you've done quite a bit within your professional development journey. And I just want to quickly first talk about managerial consulting. So what does it mean to do management consulting, and most specifically for Dalberg, what kinds of projects does Dalberg work on in East Africa?

Sandra Kimokoti:

Yeah. So management consulting is basically providing advisory services to a range of clients. They could be corporate, they could be government, they could be multi-laterals, foundations, NGOs. And we typically aim to try and help people improve their organizational performance or help them roll out and implement programs in a more efficient, and a better way. So at Dalberg, our whole premise is we're an impact first firm. And what that means is our focus is on ensuring people everywhere can be able to fulfill their potential. So we work with clients in the public sector, private sector, and philanthropic sectors across a range of topics in what's commonly known as the international development space.

Halle Rubera:

And so what kind of people does consulting attract, and why should students consider it as a career path?

Sandra Kimokoti:

Consulting, I believe, attracts a very broad range of people. A lot of people go into it, one, to just learn about what kinds of opportunities are out there and what they could focus on. So a lot of people leaving school sometimes will not have a clear idea in their mind of what sector they want to on, and so then many of them will apply into consulting because it gives you the exposure to multiple different industries, and gives a bit of time to learn about what's out there in the world that you could potentially dive deeper into, after you've gained a few years of work experience.

Sandra Kimokoti:

There're also people who go into consulting knowing they want to be consultants. So some consulting firms are boutique consulting firms. So for instance, they work primarily in, let's say the healthcare space or the technology space. And so those typically attract folks who know they have an interest in that particular sector and want to dedicate their time in that particular industry. But it's a broad range of folks that end up going into consulting. It's very hard to say what the archetype is, because it attracts all kinds of people.

Halle Rubera:

Yeah. And you did mention that a lot of your advisory work at Dalberg is with NGOs, is with the public sector, and you studied biology at Brown. So how do you make the connection between what you studied, because it seems very science-y, like lab work. So how have you seen those skills transfer into your current role right now, even when you started but now you're more senior? But even as you started, how did you find that connection between studying biology as an undergrad and then going into consulting right after graduating?

Sandra Kimokoti:

My transition to consulting was actually because I knew halfway through my program that I did not want to become a scientist, but I was already quite far down the line with my course requirements. So I decided I'll just finish my degree, but I'll try and see what else is out there. And so with the move to consulting, for me, it was an opportunity to explore what's different beyond science, because I knew I didn't want to spend the next five or so years of my life in lab trying to get a PhD or doing research. So it really gave me an opportunity to learn about what opportunities are out there.

Sandra Kimokoti:

In terms of how did my experience translate directly, from a content perspective, not quite directly. I did one project that was for a pharmaceutical company, where then the bio knowledge was relevant. But throughout the last five years, I can't say there's anything in particular about being a bio major that has helped me pursue this career path. The things that have been significant were more of personality traits than anything relevant to the degree that I got in undergrad.

Sandra Kimokoti:

Consulting requires a lot of grit and resilience, because sometimes you're working with intense deadlines. It requires a learning mindset, because sometimes you're exposed to industries where you have no prior experience and you need to get smart quickly. So I would say what's more important than the degree that you studied is your mindset and your willingness to adapt and learn as you go along.

Halle Rubera:

Is there a way to prepare? I listened to this podcast and I love everything Sandra said. But I also just don't know how to break in. Is there a way to prepare myself to recruit for a consulting role? What should students do?

Sandra Kimokoti:

Yeah. Typically, you want to first understand what kind of consulting you might enjoy. Do you want to be at a firm that's more generalist that will give you exposure to a broad set of industries, or do you want to go into a more boutique industry? Understanding your own interest is a first step, so that whatever companies you're applying to, institutions that are aligned with what you're trying to achieve and what you're trying to learn. The second thing, as you probably know, is just case interviews. They're a big part of the recruitment process for consulting companies. And you can find multiple resources online. Especially if your school doesn't have on-campus consulting recruitment support, there's a lot of free material online on case studies and how you can prepare to get into the industry.

Halle Rubera:

Sandra, I am really honored to have you on this podcast, and it's great because a lot more students are going to know about consulting. If they've never heard of it, you're probably going to pique their curiosity. But for me, I grew up in Nairobi and I had never heard of Dalberg, until my second year of college. And I know Dalberg had had significant operations in Kenya by that point. But that's like 2016 or 2017. So how would you advise to go about learning about different options when you're in college? Especially if you just have no idea this is the next step, you can get to a point where you just don't know what you don't know. So how do you get to know what's out there, or what's the importance of curiosity?

Sandra Kimokoti:

Yeah. I think the first thing I'll say on that is that it's no one's responsibility to teach you what's out there. That's on you and you have to own your own career development path. And so depending on the kind of environment that you're in, one option is school career resources, because a lot of firms will use the school career lab, or career services to support their recruiting efforts. They are good ways to learn about who's recruiting, and just ensure that if you need to subscribe to those, at least [inaudible 00:08:17] that you're on them and you're getting those notifications.

Sandra Kimokoti:

I think another great resource is LinkedIn. For example, when you hear about one company identify, from a Google search, who their competitors are in the field because they are doing similar things, follow them on LinkedIn, see what kind of content they're putting out there. It gives you more exposure into the kinds of problems that they're solving. It also allows you to have more visibility into the recruitment cycle, and when opportunities are opening up.

Halle Rubera:

You had mentioned earlier on that you started out as a biochemistry major in college, and you later decided not to go down that path. You took some time off from school, and that's kind of what led you into consulting and figuring out what you wanted as next steps. And as we were preparing for this podcast, you said something really poignant to me, which is direction champs speed. So can you elaborate a little bit on why it was important for you to take time off? Because I know a lot of students sometimes get to a point they're in college and they just have no idea what to do moving forward, but they're not also certain about taking time off or kind of pressing the brakes, pumping the brakes, and kind of figuring out what else is out there. So can you just elaborate a little bit about this philosophy of direction champs speed?

Sandra Kimokoti:

Yeah. So when I was an undergrad, as I mentioned, I knew halfway through that the course I was pursuing was not what I wanted to do out of school. And I initially decided to just finish the degree and to get things out of there. But when I finished my third year, I realized I really don't want to keep doing this. And my options at this time were either continue school and push my way through a risk that existed that I had absolutely no interesting in, [inaudible 00:10:19] the lab that was [inaudible 00:10:21] I did not find interesting or engaging; or take some time off and think about what my next steps could be and how I need to position myself for that.

Sandra Kimokoti:

And for me, I chose to take some time off from college, just to figure things out, one because I knew if I continue down this path, I would lock myself into a science [inaudible 00:10:45] and I knew it was not going to make me happy in the long term, but also I would be schooled with something that would make me miserable. And it just didn't seem like a good use of time or money, because school is expensive, to spend a whole year doing something that you're not fully sold on.

Sandra Kimokoti:

So it made more sense to me to take a pause, think about what my interests are, what are the things that are out there that I can explore, try a few things here and there, and then come back and say, okay given what I've learned, where do I think I should go. Because at the time, I knew if not [inaudible 00:11:29], I would have been a researcher. But I wasn't very clear on what next, I guess, or what it was not. So taking the time off gave me the space to get clarity on what other options exist out there for me that I can pursue.

Halle Rubera:

I don't have anything else to add on it. I asked this question specifically because I know a lot of people in college as well had the same feeling, but just we're not certain about kind of stopping, because it's almost like you built your identity around it. Like you've always been a biochemistry major, a bio major; what happens when you stop that, what are the next steps? So there's like a fear around it, but I'm glad that you shared your experience. Whoever's listening, can know that it's okay to take time just to think about next steps. And it's also okay to not know and to be confused at some point, but the thing is to not stop. It's to figure out, okay if this doesn't work out, then what's next.

Halle Rubera:

Over and above that, just having a sense of direction is great. I know a lot of us suffer from comparing ourselves to peers. I don't know whether you've probably thought about this while you were making a decision to take time off: like my peers are going to finish quickly and get into the job market, and blah blah blah, and afford this and this, and their lives are going to go XYZ. What about that?

Halle Rubera:

Yeah, I know I did. I compared myself a lot to peers as well, when I was making my decisions and kind of thinking like, yeah I want to kind of level up to what I'm seeing around me. So, just curious to know, why is it important for you to focus on your own journey, and how also do you do it with confidence without feeling down if you just don't feel like you're at the level that you want to be, or at a level that you think you should be?

Sandra Kimokoti:

Yeah, you raised something that's quite significant, this question of identity. And I think for a lot of people, it's difficult to change direction in school. Because for a long time, you've wrapped your identity around the career you're going to have in the future, or the thing that you are going to study and become. And for me, I think just being a STEM major, being a black woman, I felt there was a lot of pressure to be like [inaudible 00:13:53] of the race, and showcase how black women in STEM are doing well. And so then I felt like me pulling out of this biochemistry degree is me saying black women can't make it in this space, which is not true at all.

Sandra Kimokoti:

My belief is that your utmost responsibility is to live the best life that you can be. That's the best example you can set for anyone. And it does nobody any good for you to go down a path that makes you miserable to try and keep up appearances. So you have to go through a process of removing yourself from the expectations of other people, and giving yourself the space to really be you, because that's the only way you'll be the best version of yourself. And so for me, I had friends in college, other black women who were pursuing STEM majors and were thriving in them.

Sandra Kimokoti:

To be quite honest, I didn't really struggle so much with comparing myself, because my focus was on what's going to bring me joy, and what am I more likely to succeed in. And that gave me the courage to say, "I need to take time to pause." And I think, when you're in that environment where it seems like everybody's rushing into graduation and people are now applying for jobs, it can be a bit daunting to be the one that's taking a step back, and that you will graduate a semester or a year later, and your peers look like they've figured everything out. But there's no point of you locking yourself down a particular path, especially if you're not sure it's going to bring you joy and fulfillment.

Sandra Kimokoti:

It's more meaningful to take some time and explore a few other options, and be sure that you're going to go down a path that is going to bring you peace. There's no award for who graduates on time. And at the end of the day, you have to go home and live with yourself, and live with your daily choices, and live with the life that you've crafted for yourself. And the folks that you're comparing yourself with, are not going to [inaudible 00:16:07] experiencing the anguish, and angst and regret that you're feeling, at not taking the other options that were presented to you, because you were rushing to compare yourself to them.

Halle Rubera:

Yeah. And I think I also want to just push a little bit further on that. When you're in college, you're like 20, 21, 22. I think those are really hard decisions to make. I'm just curious to know whether you had any kind of support system, whether you tapped into mentors to guide you through the journey. Did you have some people that you chatted with that kind of also helped you chart that clear path for yourself?

Sandra Kimokoti:

When I decided to take time off, my support system was mainly my family and a few friends. At the time I was sort of struggling with the idea of, am I falling back? I want to graduate on time. And a friend of mine said to me, "This is your race. And it's not about when you finish, it's about finishing on the right path." And that actually gave me the courage to take that step and take a semester off from school.

Sandra Kimokoti:

And then my parents on the other hand, I just explained to them that I'm not sure the course I'm pursuing is what I actually want to do. And instead of you paying tuition for me to go back to school, I think it makes more sense for me to take some time off and actually think through what path is more suitable for me. And my parents were very on board with that. They've always been supportive of me pursuing things that I care about and only doing what makes sense to me. So I really didn't have any pressure to stay in school when I felt like I should be taking this time off and doing something else. All the pressure was from myself internally, but my family is very supportive, my parents and my friends as well.

Halle Rubera:

On matters of identity, you had your bio going on, but you also were a rugby player. Even just having some other things going on, did you feel like that brought a sense of balance to your life, and why is it important to pursue interests outside of work, outside of class?

Sandra Kimokoti:

Having things that I was doing outside of just my degree definitely helped me not feel like my identity is tied to me being a biochem major, or me becoming a biochemist. And rugby actually played a huge role in just my development as a person, in terms of me being able to come to a place where I can detach myself from putting my identity in anything that I do. With sports, you'll have seasons where you're injured and you're out. And in those particular seasons, you're not adding a lot of value to the team, and you can feel like, who am I without this sport, who am I without all the athletes. And having gone through that in college with rugby, got me to a place where I was quite comfortable detaching my identity from the things that I was doing.

Sandra Kimokoti:

Being a rugby player did bring a sense of balance to my life. And I think it's because of the level at which I was playing. I, at the time, was considering potentially playing professionally or at least training professionally. And so for me, it was a legitimate career path that I could take. I think also just having rugby as a venting mechanism was useful for me, and I felt like it gives me the space to just be myself and do something that was entirely for me and not for anybody else. I think it's important for folks to have things that you care about outside of work and just class, that gives you the space to dabble in things that are important to you, even if they might not, in the immediate term, have like a monetary impact. I think as long as you have something that gives you a sense of grounding, that's something I consider an asset.

Sandra Kimokoti:

For me, it wasn't just the fact that rugby was a potential career path. It was also because a lot of my friends and a lot of my support system came from my rugby team. And so the kind of balance I'm talking about is not just like having an extra curricular activity, it was also, for me, kind of like an emotional and mental balance, because it was a space where I felt allowed, I felt supported, I felt encouraged, and my team was my tribe. And so it brought a sense of balance in the sense of when I'm stressed and I'm anxious, there's a space where I know I can go and I'm accepted and I'm encouraged and I'm allowed.

Sandra Kimokoti:

And I think it's important for folks to frankly think about how you build that system into your life; who are the folks that you can go to that provide that sense of balance. It might not be an activity, your balance might come from a group of people or some friends or a particular community that you're involved in. But I think it's important to think through what helps stabilize you and how do you define yourself outside of your work and your schoolwork.

Halle Rubera:

Yeah. And I also just want to talk a little bit about your experience in the US, and your transition back to Nairobi. So you mentioned that you had this time off to think about what you wanted to do, and you decided that Dalberg was going to be it. But you had also had some opportunities to work in the US other than the research opportunities, because you've made it clear that you were not going to be a researcher. But you were a summer associate at Omidyar Network. So how did you make your decision to transition back home after living in the US for four years?

Sandra Kimokoti:

The decision to move back home after undergrad, honestly for me, was very easy. I think having been in the US for some time, I just got tired of dealing with microaggressions, to be honest, and as a black woman. And I knew that consulting was a potential career path for me, because I had already done an internship at Dalberg, but I also didn't want to go and work for a firm that was a white boys club. And so going back home gave me the chance to do a few things. It gave me the opportunity to work with Dalberg, which was a firm that I had enjoyed interning at. I liked the kind of work that the company did. I liked my colleagues. It gave me the opportunity to play rugby, because I figured I could play for the national team while I was at home. And it also gave me the chance to see family often and be close to the people I cared about.

Sandra Kimokoti:

So those three things honestly made the decision to move back home very easy for me. Once I got home from Dalberg, I didn't even think twice to be honest. It was work that was mentally stimulating and interesting to me. I would be able to see family and I would also be able to explore the opportunity of chasing a career in rugby. Whether or not it materialized, at least it gave me the chance to do that actively. So the choice was a combination of having solid career options back home, and then also just the chance to be with family in the longterm.

Halle Rubera:

Did you network your way into Dalberg? How did you get into Dalberg?

Sandra Kimokoti:

I applied to Dalberg through the Africa Careers Network, which is a platform for ALA; that's the alumni and MasterCard Foundation Scholars to secure job and internship opportunities. So I applied for my internship through that platform. But before I applied, I spoke to friends who had interned at Dalberg before, just to learn about their experience, get a feel for whether it would be something that I would enjoy. And after having a few conversations, I decided I think I would like this. So I gave it a shot.

Halle Rubera:

Yeah, and you've gone up to senior project manager, so you must have liked some things about it. And consulting is started as one of the businesses, like you mentioned at the beginning, that you get in, because people do it for different reasons. But a lot of times people get in and they have lots of exit opportunities after some time there. So with all the long hours, with the things that you've mentioned upfront, like the need for greet, the need for wanting to land really quickly, all that, what are some of the things that have kept you at the company for so long if the initial years as are a lot of grant work?

Sandra Kimokoti:

So I've been at Dalberg for five years now. And I've stayed this long because every year, I felt like I still have the opportunity to grow. I think if I had felt like I've reached a point where I'm not learning, I'm not mentally stimulated or the glass ceiling, I probably would have left. So when I say growth opportunities, it's in terms of, one, just the learning path and the opportunities to stretch myself, but then, two also, Dalberg is a meritocracy. And knowing that my career growth is not hindered by my gender, my race, or any other factors, it's really be for merit. I think that's been an encouraging factor that's kept me here for so long.

Sandra Kimokoti:

The other thing is that I really do enjoy the kind of work that we do. So I work with governments, corporates, donors, large foundations. So that diversity of clients, I think I've enjoyed seeing how different kinds of organizations think about how they contribute to having a positive impact on the world, and I've enjoyed the process of helping them think through how they can achieve that. I also really like working with the folks at Dalberg. I think if I didn't enjoy working with my colleagues, if I hated the work, I didn't enjoy the people I work with, I probably would have left by now. But I think the combination of just the mental challenge, good colleagues and interesting work, and growth opportunities, have kept me there for this long.

Halle Rubera:

You've said a lot of the things that have kind of resonated across different episodes of the podcast. It's like, good to a place where you're learning, where you're constantly challenging yourself. I guess that's how you also learn more about yourself and more about your interests, make impact. So thank you for sharing that.

Halle Rubera:

This feels like it's gone super quickly, because we've come to the end of the podcast. I really enjoyed spending this half hour with you. But this is a question that I've been asking every single one of my guests that's been on the podcast, which is what's one thing you think you've done well when you think about the decisions that you've made regarding your professional career, and what's one thing you wish you had done better?

Sandra Kimokoti:

I think one of the things I've done well when I think of my professional career, is being willing to try. Even when I'm asked to do something that I've never done before or something that I have no experience in, I think for the most part, I've been willing to say, "I'll try and do my best, and see what the result is." When I was in high school, a friend of mine gave me some advice and he said, "When somebody asks you to do something, don't say, 'I don't know how,' say, 'I'll try.'" So I try and keep that attitude, and over the years it's opened up a little bit of doors and opportunities for me and allowed me to be in spaces that I don't think I would have been in if I wasn't willing to take a risk and stretch myself.

Sandra Kimokoti:

I think on the flip side, one thing that I wish I had done better is take language learning more seriously. I speak a bit of French, and so I've had opportunities to do some work in Francophone Africa, which I really enjoyed. I think if my fluency was at a better level, I might've had more opportunities to do work in Francophone Africa. But I think overall, I just wish I had taken language learning more seriously early in my career.

Sandra Kimokoti:

With consulting, like I mentioned, it can be a steep learning curve depending on the kinds of projects you get stuffed on. And it's important to remain hungry for knowledge and teachable. And I strive to do that constantly, so that I'm always learning, always growing. And it's paid off, because I've gotten exposure to things that I would not have been exposed to. And I think that sometimes when you want to stay in your comfort zone and do all you what, you have a [inaudible 00:29:40] because you won't be able to connect the dots in certain ways, because your scope is so limited.

Halle Rubera:

Some of the things I think I could have done differently, was also expose myself more to differing opinions, differing spaces, places that I didn't feel necessarily comfortable. Because, just like you said, that's where you learn the most, and that's where you grow the most. And that's also kind of where you get exposure to so many opportunities, so many ways of thinking, so many ways of living, some which are usually better. And I think that I really was very fixated on staying inside, having a comfort group; just really not challenging myself as much as I should have. So it's been actually a great experience having different people on the podcast talk about that, because it's also been highlighted across very many different episodes. So thank you so much for sharing.

Halle Rubera:

And as we come to a close, I think that a lot of our listeners would be really curious to hear just a little bit more about your stint as a player for the national rugby team, but also you were like a fellow; you were a coach at Nyabomo Secondary School. To be honest, I don't know how else to say, but it doesn't sound like a typical thing you do when you're in college. That's like a summer internship. So what drove you to be going to this secondary school and then decide to just coach or be a fellow with the Royce Sports Society... Okay, yes.

Sandra Kimokoti:

So the Royce Fellowship for Sports and Society is based on the premise that sport can be a force for good. And so they award students with between $4,000 and $5,000 for a summer, to do a project that uses sports to improve society. So I had been playing rugby for a few years now, two and a half or so years. I was in the middle of my junior year, and was thinking about what I would be doing with my summer. And rugby had changed the way that I perceived myself as a woman, and the way that I perceived my body. I think I grew up, I guess, with this mentality of my body's meant to look a certain way and have a certain anesthetic, so it can be pleasing certain people.

Sandra Kimokoti:

And when I began to play rugby, there was a switch that flipped in my mind. And it moved from me seeing my body in this way, to seeing it like a functional tool. It became about what my body could do. And so for me, playing rugby was like a celebration of what my body could achieve. And that really changed my mindset about myself. And so then I began to think about, well this sport that has historically been available to mostly boys and men, how do you use it to change the way that young women perceive themselves and what they're capable of. And a lot of times we say that if you can believe it, then you can achieve it.

Sandra Kimokoti:

But the flip is also true. Because when you're playing a sport, a lot of times you just do what the coach says. The coach says we're going to run today, and you run until you collapse. So, the very real sense in which playing sports pushes your body to the limits and actually being able to cross those limits before you actually believe you can do it, that then changes something in your mind, and you begin believing that you can do things. So then taking that hypothesis, I applied for the fellowship, and I worked with high school girls in Western Kenya, in Kitale where I'm from, to just use rugby and combining that with reproductive health education to just promote self agency among these girls and just drive home the message that you're in control of your body, you're in controlling what you can achieve. And once you believe that, there're no barriers for you.

Sandra Kimokoti:

So we would combine rugby, and those health ed sessions. So two sessions a week on rugby, two sessions a week on reproduction health ed, for about two and a half months. So that was the whole program, and it was a lot of fun; a bit challenging, because of dealing with teenagers and high schoolers.

Sandra Kimokoti:

I think my biggest regret with that is I was in that space and then went back to college and didn't really have a plan for continuity. So after I left, who then takes over? Does it just die? And I wish I had put a bit more thought into that, when I was planning out the program. But it taught me a lot, and hopefully taught a few other people a lot as well.

Halle Rubera:

Yeah, that's really exciting. To me, it sounds like you had this opportunity to learn a lot, to gain a lot of insights about the world, about yourself, and you decided to pay it forward with working in Western Kenya with these girls. And I'm just curious to know, just as we close up, like what is the benefit of sharing this information when you find it? Like when paying it forward, paying kind of the good things that have happened to you, what is the benefit of paying some of those things forward on to other people who might not have access, on to people who might not have the chance or the privileges that you've received in your life?

Sandra Kimokoti:

The importance of paying it forward is that you begin to bring people onto the decision making table, which is especially important for people who are not represented, typically in these rooms, and you give them the chance to have their own voice at the table, and the opportunity to represent people that look like them. I think for me, paying it forward is not just like something that you do out of the goodness of your heart. It's a moral obligation.

Halle Rubera:

Yeah, I don't think there's any other better way to end this podcast. Yeah, it's a moral obligation for you to really share what you have, and pull more people up when you have the chance, when you have the opportunity to share the privileges that you have.

Halle Rubera:

Thank you so much, Sandra, for also sharing your experience with us on this podcast. I think it was really insightful just to hear about your personal journey. Thank you for your candor. I know a lot of us struggle with exactly the same feelings that you had while you were in college, but are not necessarily, like I said, sure about steps to take; or also I think even just the feeling of isolation and feeling like you're alone in that process, makes it harder and makes it worse, when it comes to making a decision about next steps. But I really appreciate that you were open in sharing your thought process and sharing that at some point you just did not know what to do, and that's okay. Thank you so much, Sandra.

Sandra Kimokoti:

Thanks for having me, Halle. It's been a pleasure.

Sandra Kimokoti:

(Singing)